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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-18-2003, 12:19 AM
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Great Job!

I think FIRST has done an EXCELLENT job with the new system.

I didn't think it would be possible, but they managed to come up with a solution that fulfills all the "meta-criteria" discussed by teams.

They spelled it right out for us at the beggining of Bob's message.

The main criteria they used were the same as OUR criteria that we communicated to them. We want the championship to be as competitive as possible, while still allowing for *everyone* to get a chance to go eventually.

Given the rate FIRST is growing, and restrictions on the size of The Championship, I think the tiered system is about as fair as they could get. I'm also a big fan of the "rookie all-star" being a qualifying award. Something everyone emphasized was "rookies should get to experience The Championship". This rule allows for the *best* rookies to experience "the big show" while still keeping things competitive.


Sure with the tiered system it might take you 7 years to get a "free ride" to the championship, but at least you'll get to go eventually....

In the mean time... enjoy yourself at FIRST's new (unconfirmed) "Mega-Regionals" and try to earn your trip down to The Championship.

I know there may be a few flaws with this system, but I think we should sit back and see how it actually works before we overly-criticize it. I believe FIRST has done a bang-up job in crafting this new system.

I'm also confident that FIRST will (again!) listen to team's comments/concerns about the system (as we see them this year), when they are looking at 2005.

Let's give this system a chance.
I think it will be GREAT for FIRST in the long term.
It will certainly bridge the gap between now and any "Regional Championship" system they might implement in the future.

Just my comments...
John


(If nothing else, this will light a fire under the butts of those *veteran* teams as they scramble to qualify... should be a fun and competitive season I know I'm going to tell my guys... "We either put up, or shut up!" ).

Last edited by JVN : 10-18-2003 at 12:22 AM.
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Unread 10-18-2003, 08:45 AM
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Unless I am not reading something I think that this system really sucks. First I have to say that the only reason why I still work with first and promote it is because of it's ethics and gracious professionalism. Now with that said what is the point of a national champion with out the best robots there. I DO NOT WANT A SINCE FAIR. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best.

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Unread 10-18-2003, 09:02 AM
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Everyone: I'm sorry if I accidentally advocated a rumor. There's a little ambiguous point in where rookie teams stand as well as those who've never been. The best way to figure this out is to look in the team information system. I would think that they are doing as Patrick pointed out.

I think this will work and I'm glad they came up with something, so I agree with John that we should be thankful and ride this out for a while to see how it works. The larger problem still lurks in the distance though.

Shaun: This isn't turning into a science fair. The best teams still get to go. If you read the opening it says "Outstanding team performance or outstanding robot performance is the ticket." They are bringing in the best robots from all the regionals: the engineering inspiration, the rookie all-stars, and the regional champs. On top of that they're bringing back the champs from the previous year! And this year you can still qualify by the points system. What more do you want?
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Unread 10-18-2003, 09:13 AM
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I did not see where reagion winner go the only thing i see is national winner get to return
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Unread 10-18-2003, 09:13 AM
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Re: /me confused

Quote:
Originally posted by computhief263
Ok, am i the only one a little confused by the "merit based qualifying"?

"Teams that are qualified to register will have access to Championship registration starting noon Eastern time on October 22, 2003" Now does that mean teams that qualify under the "merit based system" qualify by the previous seasons performance?

although it says "Merit Based Qualifying Teams from the 2004 season", how can u qualify from the 2004 season if registration closes before the season even starts

Could someone please clarify this part of the eligibility requirements for me?
Teams that can register on 10/22 are:

All prior Championship Chairman's Award winners
Original and sustaining teams from 1992
2003 Championship "Stack Attack" winners
2003 Point qualifiers based on the previous 5 point or more system

And I'm not really clear on how they are registering with the Tier system, I think it is that X spots will be open for Tier 6, X for 5 and so on....Don't quote me on it though. Obviously Tier 6 will have many more spots than Tier 1

Teams that qualify at 2004 events will register through FIRST the Monday following their event if they are going to go, they get to work out all the fun logistics such as paying the entry fee, shipping, travel and all that fun stuff.

Hope that helps.
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Unread 10-18-2003, 10:24 AM
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Question /me still confused

Quote:
Originally posted by Ricky Q.
Teams that qualify at 2004 events will register through FIRST the Monday following their event if they are going to go, they get to work out all the fun logistics such as paying the entry fee, shipping, travel and all that fun stuff.

Hope that helps.
And where do u see that anywhere on the FIRST page about the Championship? Where did find that out if not from the FIRST homepage?
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Unread 10-18-2003, 10:34 AM
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Re: /me still confused

Quote:
Originally posted by computhief263
And where do u see that anywhere on the FIRST page about the Championship? Where did find that out if not from the FIRST homepage?
You will find it on the finance page.

Quote:
Teams qualifying at a Regional to attend the Championship must contact FIRST Finance at 1-800-871-8326 ext. #414 or #415 to make payment arrangements by Check or Credit Card on the Monday following the qualifying Regional
Finance Page


Wetzel
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Unread 10-18-2003, 10:46 AM
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Re: Great Job!

Quote:
Originally posted by JVN
Sure with the tiered system it might take you 7 years to get a "free ride" to the championship, but at least you'll get to go eventually....
I hope this doesn't seriously happen.. Think about it, if you join a FIRST team in your freshman year, and stay with it during all 4 years of high school, but have to leave for college, work, etc. after you graduate, then you have missed out on the opportunity to experience what a first National competition is all about.

True, you will have gone to many regionals, and maybe mini comps along the way, but the Nationals event is the grandest event in FIRST.. Why take that experience away from someone??

Compared to a regional or mini comp, Nationals is indescribable!

I think that every team should at least have an opportunity to go to the Nats every 4 years at least (3 would be better, 2 would be great) because of just that reason.

I hope this is just a temporary solution like it has been guessed before!
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Unread 10-18-2003, 10:54 AM
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I would like to encourage everyone to wait 30 minutes when they thought they have something important to ask/comment, to think about it and research for an answer before it cause any confusion to all the readers out there reading this thread.

Couple of clarifications:

1. On the FIRST website, although there is no direct link in the front, you can go into FIRST Robotics Competition, then into Championship Event to look up the 2004 Championship Eligibility. This is not a joke trying to fool people. The link is http://www.usfirst.org/robotics/2004/cmp_elig.htm

2. Take your time to read it. There are a few ways you can qualify for Championship Event 2004:

A. All prior Championship Chairman's Award Winners, original teams from 92', 03' Stack Attack CE (Championship Event) Champions.

B. Merit Based Qualifying Teams from the 2004 season:

Regional Chairman's Award winners (1 per Regional)
Regional Engineering Inspiration Award winners (1 per Regional)
Regional Rookie All-Star Award winners (1 per Regional)
Regional Champions (3 per Regional)

C. Point system from last year, only effective for 2004. The Point system will not be used after 2004 until they change the rules to allow it.

D. Tiered system: The longer you haven't been to CE, the more likely you will get in.

3. The original sustaining 92' teams are:

19 - Big Red Robotics
45 - Technokats
126 - Gael Force
190 - WPI
191 - Xcats
250 - Dynamos


Again, please let the reasoning and logic part of your brain kicks in and not let the emotional and feelings part take over and rush to a post. Thanks.
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Unread 10-18-2003, 11:13 AM
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hey- I think we did pretty good?
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I too agree that this is an improvement over the existing point system. But it still needs work

More teams will get a chance to go to the Nats. That should be paramount. But ALL should be able to go on equal terms or we should make this a true championship

But it makes the current season's winners jump trough hoops to get qualified to attend. At least in the past you could prequalify to travel based on the prior season's play. Now you have a potential for 60 teams or more needing to scramble to make trip arrangements at the last minute. It will be costly and nerve wracking. It has already proven an excluding force this past year for many teams who won but couldn't come up with the travel arrangements at the last minute. And if that is the case is there really a championship? I see a lot of good machines being left behind because they won too late.

The solution is to expand the Nationals- something that everyone at FIRST refuses to acknowledge. It is not impossible but apparenly is not in the mindset of the parent organization.

As for mega-regionals? If they are as good as the Nats, are recognized as the Nats are and offer travel experience for the team on par with the Nats then I say go for it. But frankly, I doubt that will be the case. We have a long way to go before all the regionals have the same quality as the Nationals. And selling a trip to the National Championships to my superintendant is a lot easer than selling a trip to some regional in xyz.

Will FIRST guarantee that a team gets to the Nats every 4 years? I wonder and hope so.

Wouldn't it be easier to just add 500 new teams than try to figure out who can or can't go? My team will be there this year and we want to keep attending. But I dread the idea of needing to win during the season and raise a huge sum of money for the team to travel at the last minute on compromised terms.


WC
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Unread 10-18-2003, 11:22 AM
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Elgin: They are also trying to please the crowd that wants the best robots there I'm in that crowd and the crowd that wants everyone to be there, so I agree with you that it would be nice to have everyone go every couple years. But that is highly unlikely.

Everyone: I would like to point out the fact that the system for going to the CE is in it's third evolution (first everyone could go, then even/odd and points, now tiers). It changed because it needed to be changed and because we wanted it to be changed, respectively. I think if we come to a point where we find the system to be flawed or unfavorable, then it will be changed again. FIRST has never turned a deaf ear to us because we are FIRST and FIRST is us. This solution came out of countless hours of reading forum notes from individuals.
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Unread 10-18-2003, 11:27 AM
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Re: Great Job!

Quote:
Originally posted by JVN


Sure with the tiered system it might take you 7 years to get a "free ride" to the championship, but at least you'll get to go eventually....

John- I'm not seeing that. How do I tell my students in a 4 year school that they are working hard to send a team that they won't be a part of three years later? This needs to be a maximum of a 4 year rotation. Two years would be better

In the mean time... enjoy yourself at FIRST's new (unconfirmed) "Mega-Regionals" and try to earn your trip down to The Championship.

John- even if I "earn it" in week 8 of the season how do I make travel plans reasonably? Is FIRST going to make the registration free and save us the 4K? I think not.

I know there may be a few flaws with this system, but I think we should sit back and see how it actually works before we overly-criticize it. I believe FIRST has done a bang-up job in crafting this new system.

Agreed, it is a step in the right direction. But they shot many of their biggest participants in the foot here. Not everybody can win but all should have a reasonable chance to participate. With only a few teams winning the rest are left hanging despite their participation and contributions.


Just my comments...
John


(If nothing else, this will light a fire under the butts of those *veteran* teams as they scramble to qualify... should be a fun and competitive season I know I'm going to tell my guys... "We either put up, or shut up!" )

Gee John- I though I HAD a fire under my butt (ouch- very dangerous). We HAVE put up or shut up. I don't know if I want to scramble any more if the game is going to change every time we get established in the current system..
We need a bigger National- not a smaller field. I thought we were trying to reach ALL the high schools in the Nation?

WC
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Unread 10-18-2003, 11:37 AM
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I have mixed feelings about the new system. I like the tier system a lot as it ensures that everyone gets to go eventually. However, I really don't like the fact that after this year most awards will count for next to nothing. The technology awards are there to acknowledge teams with great design regardless of their overall performance. Its fairly easy to have the most amazing design ever, but not be able to win a regional due to bad luck, bad alliance selection, or something like that. Also, the judges awards and team spirit awards acknowledge teams that are making great contribution, even though it might not be as much as the teams that win Chairman's or Engineering Inspiration. These teams should still get a better chance to go to nationals, especially team spirit as they add a lot to the overall atmosphere of the competition. Perhaps FIRST could use a modified points system to help award winning teams qualify. Under this system, you would get points based on your tier(ie 1st tier-1 point, 2nd tier- 2 points, etc) and then additional points based on awards. The number of points necessary to qualify could be changed every year based on the number of spots available.

I also really don't like the extremely limited amount of time given for teams who qualify during the season(which is almost everyone under the new system). 2 days is just not enough to get permission from the school district, raise the money, etc. Since there's a free week between the last regional and nationals, why not make the deadline for all teams in the time frame? Also, since theres such short notice, I hope that FIRST can reserve hotel rooms and flights for teams that qualify at the last minute.
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Unread 10-18-2003, 12:09 PM
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This seems very unclear about how the tiered system operates and that makes me anxious.

As Ricky mentioned, is it that a fraction of the open spots available each year are designated to be for any one tier? That is, there'd be 20 open spots for Tier 6, 20 for Tier 5, 20 for 4, etc.? Or, is it that the entirety of the open spots are made available for registration on a tier by tier basis? In other words, Tier 6 teams are given a week to register for, say, 150 open spots, then tier 5 gets access to what's left for a week, etc.?

Then, if it gets to Tier 3 which contains, say, 80 teams and there are only 40 slots available, it says there'll be a lottery to determine eligibility. Well, how does the lottery work and when will teams be notified?

I'd like for this to be clarified.
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Unread 10-18-2003, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Wayne C.

The solution is to expand the Nationals- something that everyone at FIRST refuses to acknowledge. It is not impossible but apparenly is not in the mindset of the parent organization.

Wouldn't it be easier to just add 500 new teams than try to figure out who can or can't go? My team will be there this year and we want to keep attending. But I dread the idea of needing to win during the season and raise a huge sum of money for the team to travel at the last minute on compromised terms.

WC
Wayne, let me say one thing since you run an off-season competition. Would it be easier for your team to make Brunswick Eruptuion 2004, 2005 etc... larger to fit 200 teams if they wanted to attend or would it be easier to make a fair way to pick only certain amounts of teams to attend. think about that please and think of the logistics behind an event that you want to hold 1000 teams or so compaired to an event to hold 350 teams or so. i think personally FIRST might beable to let more people in if they had more people to help work at the event...

~Mike
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