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Unread 01-17-2018, 08:02 PM
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Motor climber issues

Our team was having troubles with making a climber out of a CIM motor. We were trying to climb up roughly 7 feet in 15 second with our bot being around 120lb we found that doing it is really difficult. It appears that we are far from having enough power with a 5:1 reduction. Has anyone found a good gearbox or other solution to this?
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Unread 01-17-2018, 08:09 PM
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Re: Motor climber issues

First, your gearing is nowhere near what you need. Use JVN’s design calculator (https://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/papers/3188) and select “Linear Mechanism” and play around with the gearing and see the current draw and lift times that you desire.

Select a proper gearbox like a VersaPlanetary (https://www.vexrobotics.com/versaplanetary.html) or the new Andymark Sport (http://www.andymark.com/CIM-Sport-p/am-cimsport.htm). When climbing you need a very high reduction in order to achieve the torque to lift a 120 lb robot. Keep in mind that a robot at the weight limit also has bumpers and a battery, so you’ll actually be lifting 154 lbs if you’re at the limit. Also, make sure to protect your gearbox by adding a chain and sprocket or gear reduction so it doesn’t experience issues in season.
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Unread 01-17-2018, 08:25 PM
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Re: Motor climber issues

If I were using a cascade elevator with a winch, could I use this same linear tab with the correct pulley diameter of the winch to find the correct gearing and respective climb/lift time?
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Unread 01-17-2018, 08:30 PM
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Re: Motor climber issues

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Originally Posted by Landon K View Post
If I were using a cascade elevator with a winch, could I use this same linear tab with the correct pulley diameter of the winch to find the correct gearing and respective climb/lift time?
Yup!
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Unread 01-17-2018, 08:35 PM
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Re: Motor climber issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by cclee View Post
Our team was having troubles with making a climber out of a CIM motor. We were trying to climb up roughly 7 feet in 15 second with our bot being around 120lb we found that doing it is really difficult. It appears that we are far from having enough power with a 5:1 reduction. Has anyone found a good gearbox or other solution to this?
Also, note that you can get away with climbing much less than seven feet to meet the requirements. Just a thought.
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Unread 01-17-2018, 09:46 PM
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Re: Motor climber issues

As you're doing that, the spreadsheet doesn't just tell you how fast you will climb but how much current the motor will draw. This is important because the biggest circuit breaker you can use for an individual circuit breaker is 40 amps. If you go over 40 amps for long enough, the circuit breaker will trip and your robot will fall to the ground. Our team is designing for the motors to draw around 20-30 amps as insurance for unplanned mechanical inefficiencies (which NEVER happen on FRC robots).

In addition to the 40 amps for each individual motor, consider the 120 amp main breaker as well. If the sum of all your branch currents (current per motor * number of motors) exceeds 120 amps for long enough, not only will your robot fall down but it will turn off for the rest of the match.

Some great information about this is available from VEX here: http://motors.vex.com/introduction.
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Unread 01-17-2018, 10:28 PM
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Re: Motor climber issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkrishna3082 View Post
Also, note that you can get away with climbing much less than seven feet to meet the requirements. Just a thought.
To throw the counter-point, at the risk of derailing the thread: if a team's goal is to make it easy for other robots to fit underneath, or to be able to Tarzan their way up with another robot also on the rung, that much travel is probably a good look.
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Unread 01-18-2018, 07:44 AM
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Re: Motor climber issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billfred View Post
To throw the counter-point, at the risk of derailing the thread: if a team's goal is to make it easy for other robots to fit underneath, or to be able to Tarzan their way up with another robot also on the rung, that much travel is probably a good look.
Tarzan ... please, no.

*** Has visions of a 3 robot newton's cradle ***
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Unread 01-18-2018, 09:12 AM
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Re: Motor climber issues

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Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Tarzan ... please, no.

*** Has visions of a 3 robot newton's cradle ***
My gut says Tarzan-ing will be limited to two robots, part for time constraints and partly because Levitate exists. The ability to hook, spool out to get clear of another robot, and coordinate a 2-up climb feels about as plausible as it's gonna get for multiple robots on the rung.
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Unread 01-18-2018, 09:17 AM
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Re: Motor climber issues

To give you a better starting point... last year my team climbed with a CIM through a 20:1 reduction on a 1" spool, and it was certainly quick enough, under 5 seconds to get up to the trigger on the airship.
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Unread 01-18-2018, 09:29 AM
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Re: Motor climber issues

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
To give you a better starting point... last year my team climbed with a CIM through a 20:1 reduction on a 1" spool, and it was certainly quick enough, under 5 seconds to get up to the trigger on the airship.
An additional data point: 5402 used a Mini CIM through a GEM at 49.4:1, followed by a 12:15 chain reduction (so, 61.75:1 overall) on a 1.5" pulley. That was needlessly conservative and took us about five seconds once hooked. We had a lot of retrofitting to do at our second district event on the gear system, but had we made it to district championships the plans were already in place to jettison one stage from the GEM (making it 13.5:1, 16.88:1 overall) and switch to a CIM motor. That would've pulled closer to 46A for the 2-second climb, which is playing with fire a little but to rein it back in would take a lot more re-engineering.
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Unread 01-18-2018, 09:33 AM
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Re: Motor climber issues

another datapoint.

we used a CIM with a 12:1 planetary and a 3.5:1 chain and sprocket (total 42:1) on a 2" spool.
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Unread 01-18-2018, 10:28 AM
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Re: Motor climber issues

And another, we used one cim on a banebot 64:1 gearbox with a ~4 inch drum, and climbed in about 4 sec.
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Unread 01-18-2018, 10:36 AM
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Re: Motor climber issues

When gearing your climber, give yourself some lead room with the amperage. We designed ours right on the edge last year so we could climb quick but resulted with our first event being a joke. Our climber woukd get half way up and it would start tripping breakers. It was a combination of us using a bad rope and no enough gearing. In qualifications, we missed 9 climbs, and looking back we probably would've been in the top 8, but ended up in 34th.
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Unread 01-18-2018, 07:37 PM
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Re: Motor climber issues

One more data point: last year we climbed with one CIM and a 1/2" hex shaft as a "drum" quite rapidly (<4sec), using nylon webbing which wrapped upon itself quite neatly. We weighed less than 100#, with batteries and bumpers. This year, if we're anticipating pulling up another robot, we'll likely add a second CIM to keep the time quick to allow time for ramp-climbing and/or hook-engaging. If just one robot, probably one CIM. As only a 12" climb is required this year, we might possibly use only one CIM for two robots if our climb says fairly level.
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