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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 04:25 PM
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Re: Team Update 11

It's a huge relief to me - It would have been a stretch on resources to deal with this issue at competitions. From teams planning to bring extra bandsaws and hands, to robot inspectors having to argue down and reinspect and often help rework 10-15 robots (noting especially that the box is only virtual), to the event machine shops having to accommodate all the robots that need more complex work, this would have been a big undertaking. It would have ruined practice day for many teams, if not also the first qualification matches.

I wish they had made a move sooner - either to call attention to the rule or relax it - but this is goodwill earned by FIRST anyway.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 04:38 PM
Kevin Leonard Kevin Leonard is offline
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Re: Team Update 11

I know a few different teams who tore their robots apart during the last week to cut off a half inch of frame.

But thank goodness FIRST changed the rule. I wouldn't want to walk around the pits on practice day watching teams saw their robots apart.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 04:38 PM
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Re: Team Update 11

I'm a long term RI and I missed the distinction. We cut our kit frame to 27.5" (28" with bolt heads), so we were just barely legal under the old rule.

I think it would be wise for LRIs/RIs (or anyone) to notice when a bot fails the old rule and passes the new rule and very directly inform the team that they did not build to spec up until Feb 13th. Inform them that they were 'this close' to having a very different experience on day 1 of the competition.

And strongly encourage them to pay closer attention to the rules next year.

Many teams that would have failed R03, ignore team updates, Q&A, and blogs, etc. would otherwise be oblivious to the fact that they had a brush with
big troubles. Give them a chance to learn from their mistakes, even if it ended up being un-mistaked by FIRST.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 04:41 PM
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Re: Team Update 11

Good Guy Frank saves the bacon, again!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Team Update #11
This decision was not made lightly. While it does make the rule more forgiving, many teams understood the rules as written initially, and designed their robots with that understanding. Some teams caught the implications of the rule as it had been written later in the build season and invested time and resources in redesigning and reworking their robots to comply. For those teams, please accept my apologies. However, I do believe this change is better for the community because it will result in a better experience for more teams.*
*Emphasis added. This is how I like leaders to think.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard View Post
I know a few different teams who tore their robots apart during the last week to cut off a half inch of frame.

But thank goodness FIRST changed the rule. I wouldn't want to walk around the pits on practice day watching teams saw their robots apart.
Amen. The situation would have been somewhat worse on Friday night at a Week1 district event.
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Last edited by Richard Wallace : 02-13-2018 at 04:44 PM.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 04:57 PM
Tom Bottiglieri Tom Bottiglieri is offline
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Re: Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjtheone View Post
So first update 11, tosses all the hard work that teams did to be rules compliant with R03, and now CD closes the thread.

Lets all gets on board with the kinder gentler FRC where everyone is a winner.

Limits are so, restrictive and well limiting. Lets ensure that everyone is a winner. Failure is so yesterday.

To paraphrase a famous, but old movie line "Consequences, we don't need no steenkin consequences"
Somewhere there is a forest which is crying out to be seen but is stuck behind a bunch of trees.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 05:02 PM
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Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
+1/2" X L x H extra area to use ... maybe?
Not having to adjust your frame after others already have?
Not having to engineer around the difference in area?

I guess if enough don't follow the rules, FIRST will change them. Seems wrong and unfair to those who followed the rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjtheone View Post
So first update 11, tosses all the hard work that teams did to be rules compliant with R03, and now CD closes the thread.

Lets all gets on board with the kinder gentler FRC where everyone is a winner.

Limits are so, restrictive and well limiting. Lets ensure that everyone is a winner. Failure is so yesterday.

To paraphrase a famous, but old movie line "Consequences, we don't need no steenkin consequences"

Would you guys prefer to have partners that no show in your qual matches with them because they were busy cutting their robot in half to pass inspection because of bolt heads sticking out too far, in order to be "fair"?
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Unread 02-13-2018, 05:35 PM
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Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Would you guys prefer to have partners that no show in your qual matches with them because they were busy cutting their robot in half to pass inspection because of bolt heads sticking out too far, in order to be "fair"?
Quite frankly yes. And given that I am a mostly a Fab mentor, and not involved with drive team, unless our robot was catastrophically broken, I would be working with those teams to assist, in any way I could to help them become rules compliant. Was already making plans on how we could best assist teams that had R03 issues.

Making the assumption that most teams that are going to get bit by this rule are teams using kitbots, replacing the axle bolts and adding an interior spacer to move the bearing inboard, would likely resolve the issue. I base this assumption on the fact that most rookie and younger teams build off the kitbot chassis and rookie teams are more likely to have made this mistake.

Both of these fixes, are able to be done without massive rework, as you can pull the axles without even removing the side plates. If you are so far outside the spec that you would have to do major frame perimeter altering surgery to become rules compliant, you likely are beyond the minor protrusions issue and still have a problem.

Beyond my take on the rules are the rules, and failures have consequences, I have huge misgivings about this very late change. Firstly it penalizes teams that specifically constrained their designs to be rules compliant (disclaimer, as I have mentioned, we use a kitbot chassis as a initial base and would have really liked the extra 1/2" of width). If this change was made sooner we would have widened our design and gained functionality. Secondly it penalizes all the teams that realized they were in violation of R03 and did the redesign & rework to become compliant, which cost them time (which is always in short supply in build season) and money. Thirdly (and by far and away most importantly), it sets the precedence of both demands for and expectations of changes the next time a bunch of teams misunderstand a rule.

So the next time, a team realizes they messed up do they fix it, passively hope for a rule change, actively lobby for a rule change? After all it happened this year.

In my opinion this change, penalizes the teams that got it right, penalizes the teams that got it wrong and then deal with it, and rewards the teams that failed, as they just removed the consequences of failing in this particular instance. This is not how engineering works. It is not how I expected First to work and I am very disappointed by their decision. It is not a win, it is a failure to uphold engineering principles and quite frankly a betrayal of all the teams that sweated the details to get it right.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 05:36 PM
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Re: Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjtheone View Post
So first update 11, tosses all the hard work that teams did to be rules compliant with R03, and now CD closes the thread.

Lets all gets on board with the kinder gentler FRC where everyone is a winner.

Limits are so, restrictive and well limiting. Lets ensure that everyone is a winner. Failure is so yesterday.

To paraphrase a famous, but old movie line "Consequences, we don't need no steenkin consequences"
This doesn't ensure that "everyone is a winner". It just lets "everyone" have a working robot driving on the field. Is that too much to ask?

There are plenty of other chances to fail and lose with less frustration and more inspiration.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 05:51 PM
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Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjtheone View Post
...
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Unread 02-13-2018, 05:54 PM
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Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjtheone View Post
(...)
In my opinion this change, penalizes the teams that got it right, penalizes the teams that got it wrong and then deal with it, and rewards the teams that failed, as they just removed the consequences of failing in this particular instance.
(...)
We got it right and designed our frame perimeter to be well within the size constraints. I don't feel like we've been penalized though. Our build is unaffected.

I am glad that there will be fewer horror stories of teams taking sawzalls to their drivetrains at their first event. That's a positive outcome, way preferable to making them miss matches because of a vaguely worded rule.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 06:09 PM
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Re: Team Update 11

Personally, as a RI, ref, mentor who has been there, and a drive coach, I think this is easily the best decision they could have made for this case. The ramifications of that type of change could have been easily overlooked by everyone from the GDC to AM as the KOP chassis supplier.

It seems like it would be reasonably-easy enough to add warning flyers to the KOP chassis in future years so that teams understand they must cut the chassis in some way in order to be a legal size.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 06:17 PM
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Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by JesseK View Post
...The ramifications of that type of change could have been easily overlooked by everyone from the GDC to AM as the KOP chassis supplier.

It seems like it would be reasonably-easy enough to add warning flyers to the KOP chassis in future years so that teams understand they must cut the chassis in some way in order to be a legal size.
There is a small warning on page 8 of the 2018 assembly instruction for the kit chassis; see thumbnail. IF Andymark knew the rules in advance (they don't) then that note could have been more explicit.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 06:18 PM
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Re: Team Update 11

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Originally Posted by bjtheone View Post
It is not a win, it is a failure to uphold engineering principles and quite frankly a betrayal of all the teams that sweated the details to get it right.
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Yeah cause screwing over a bunch of teams over 1/2in is really inspiring for teams.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 06:26 PM
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Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
I'll disagree.

It's rewarding bad behavior and is unfair to those who actually read and followed the rules.
I agreed with you on opposing Update 3 (cutting the number plate assignment combinations in half), but I'll disagree with you on Update 11. I don't think a couple square inches is an actual advantage, and DQing a bunch of robots does not provide more varied gameplay at the high level. Keeping the rule in place would have had calculable negative consequences.
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Unread 02-13-2018, 07:06 PM
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Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by s_forbes View Post
We got it right and designed our frame perimeter to be well within the size constraints. I don't feel like we've been penalized though. Our build is unaffected.

I am glad that there will be fewer horror stories of teams taking sawzalls to their drivetrains at their first event. That's a positive outcome, way preferable to making them miss matches because of a vaguely worded rule.
Agreed!

As a rookie team using the kitbot chassis, that originally misunderstood the rule and built the chassis with bolts sticking out over the maximum size, I fully support this rule change. And I d9nt feel cheated at all.

Luckily, our team has a mentor (your's truly) that spends way too much time on CD and saw early on that we misunderstood the rule, so we were able to fix it before we started building any of our mechanisms.

However, it is clear that many teams (especially rookie) didn't understand the rules and hadn't seen any clarification until this week, or at all. I can't imagine showing up to your first competition as a rookie only to be told you have to cut your bot apart to make it 1/2" smaller when you followed the rules as you understood them. It would certainly not be inspiring and it could be enough to discourage that team from participating in the future.
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