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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-07-2016, 05:40 AM
Gdeaver Gdeaver is offline
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Re: MAR Competitions

These were scoring errors not referee judgement calls. There is no way to contest errors. Judgement calls are what they are. Like it or not but if a scoring error is made correct it.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 05:55 AM
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Re: MAR Competitions

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Originally Posted by Gdeaver View Post
These were scoring errors not referee judgement calls. There is no way to contest errors. Judgement calls are what they are. Like it or not but if a scoring error is made correct it.
Not quite that easy unless the issue is noticed right away. The sensors on the turret are supposed to help with the balls but sensors on the outer works would have driven even more cost into this game field.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 06:00 AM
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Re: MAR Competitions

The error I'm referring to is several not counted crossings.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 06:26 AM
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Re: MAR Competitions

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Originally Posted by Gdeaver View Post
The error I'm referring to is several not counted crossings.
Understand but with no sensors (I saw in Mount Olive) it falls on the field stations to track those. Hence human error is induced.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 08:23 PM
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Re: MAR Competitions

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Originally Posted by DonRotolo View Post
I hope that when you become an adult you volunteer to be a referee; only then will you understand how immatiure that sounds. In the meantime, unsupported claims by an anonymous poster don't carry much weight here.
How would that make me an adult? Im 100% sure that the point of the ref is to get all the calls right. In football, teams expect the ref to get all the calls right. If we cant expect them to do so, we might as well just play by the honor system. Ill recant my statment about the volunteers thinking they are better but, I stand by my position on the refs.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 08:33 PM
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Re: MAR Competitions

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Originally Posted by Carl_the_Llama View Post
The head ref at the Hatboro-Horsham competitiom said and I quote, "You can't expect us to get all the calls right." Whats the point of the ref then?
Honestly such a statement makes me respect a volunteer even more. We already know that doing a job as difficult as Head Referee perfectly is near impossible. I think admitting fault in yourself instead of claiming perfection is the first step to truly doing something well. Making the inverse claim of "We get every call right" sounds far more ridiculous that what you quoted.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 08:35 PM
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Re: MAR Competitions

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Originally Posted by aashay2035 View Post
They were several issues at the competition of scoring. Also the teams themselves were not getting points they deserved. (I personally knew of two separate times when this happened in eliminations.)
I believe that first should start implementing video replay if the teams request it. It should be elimination matches have video replays. If an alliance challenges and wins they can use it. But if they lose they will not have video replay to challenge. It gives fair chance to all teams that they diverse.
Exactly. I noticed that 1640 and 2559 were cheated out of points for crossing outerworks. As well as 2559 being e-stopped for having a torn bumper. What are torn cloth and pool noodles going to do to a field or robot that a 120 pound robot wont do?
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Unread 03-07-2016, 08:40 PM
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Re: MAR Competitions

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Originally Posted by Carl_the_Llama View Post
Why are the officals in the MAR district so bad at their jobs? And why do the volunteers think theyre so much better than everyone?
I've been debating whether or not to post on this thread since I saw it last night. Here it goes.

Anyone that knows me has heard me be captious of certain aspects of both FIRST and MAR multiple times. But something I would never do is openly bash the abilities and efforts of the volunteers.

Why? Because we're all human. We all make mistakes, we all have bad days. Just remember, the refs, judges, field crew, literally everyone at the competition, both on the front line and behind the scenes, are gracious donating their time for you. If you ever think that a volunteer is purposely not putting their all into their job, you're wrong. You just competed at a Week 1 competition, you can't expect everything to go smoothly right out of the gate. But I have no doubt that those in charge are already tirelessly working to make things better. And you should be both respectful and thankful for that.

It's fine to be angry/annoyed/upset, but you can't fault anyone for being fallible.
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  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-07-2016, 08:41 PM
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Re: MAR Competitions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_the_Llama View Post
Exactly. I noticed that 1640 and 2559 were cheated out of points for crossing outerworks. As well as 2559 being e-stopped for having a torn bumper. What are torn cloth and pool noodles going to do to a field or robot that a 120 pound robot wont do?
I hope the irony is not lost on anyone with regards to the fact that it sounds like 2559 was in violation with G19-1 and referees responded accordingly.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 08:43 PM
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Re: MAR Competitions

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Originally Posted by DonRotolo View Post
OK, so Carl, Aashay and whitetail need to confirm they've signed up in VIMS for an event, right? Until then, I don't want to hear your whining.
I can definitely see you getting mad at a ref in football for making a wrong call. You expect them to get all if not 99.999999999999% of the calls right in football or any other sport, why should it be different for this?
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Unread 03-07-2016, 08:44 PM
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Re: MAR Competitions

CARL.... this kills volunteers.

But seriously, Refs are human. As long as they are doing their best to make the right calls I'm happy.

The GDC is also human (last I checked... it's possible, based on his widespread approval, that Frank is in fact a collection of kittens in a human suit) and as long as they are trying to give us a cool game I'm happy.

BUT I think in this case we might need dedicated scorekeepers to track defense crossings.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 08:49 PM
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Re: MAR Competitions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_the_Llama View Post
I can definitely see you getting mad at a ref in football for making a wrong call. You expect them to get all if not 99.999999999999% of the calls right in football or any other sport, why should it be different for this?
NFL refs are not 99% perfect, but I can give you three reasons.

1. The FRC game changes each year. For the most part, football hasn't changed in the last half century (some small changes but not as big as a new game each year)
2. FRC refs are volunteers and are trained on site, NFL officials are unionized workers with extensive training and experience.
3. NFL stops game play many time during the game for refs to review and discuss the game, FRC refs do not get a mid-match timeout and cannot review tapes.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 08:50 PM
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Re: MAR Competitions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_the_Llama View Post
Exactly. I noticed that 1640 and 2559 were cheated out of points for crossing outerworks. As well as 2559 being e-stopped for having a torn bumper. What are torn cloth and pool noodles going to do to a field or robot that a 120 pound robot wont do?
Carl, it's hard to come up with an exact answer to bumper question because it's circumstantial but it's all about the safety and well-being of the robot (aka, the hard work 2559 and other teams have done). I know I wouldn't want bumper fabric to get tangled in gear trains or other parts.

Refereeing is hard and not like other sports because everyone in FRC plays the game at different speeds through different modes of production. Do a search here to read through all of the referee threads of the past because this is an annual topic, especially after a week 1 event. It's the toughest job in FRC and is always going to be a subject of criticism. I have the upmost respect for them and what they do for FRC as a volunteer, especially if they're admitting fault. it happens from time to time and they get the spotlight more than other volunteers.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 08:53 PM
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Re: MAR Competitions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
CARL.... this kills volunteers.

But seriously, Refs are human. As long as they are doing their best to make the right calls I'm happy.

The GDC is also human (last I checked... it's possible, based on his widespread approval, that Frank is in fact a collection of kittens in a human suit) and as long as they are trying to give us a cool game I'm happy.

BUT I think in this case we might need dedicated scorekeepers to track defense crossings.
Unless I really hit my head hard, didn't we have scorekeepers hold a plunger in 2015 after we needed them in 2014? I guess you could say that the scoring was far less subjective in 2015 than 2014 for assist points, but wouldn't we say that crossing a defense is pretty cut and dry?

Just like Aerial Assist, I like the core game mechanics and I understand it can't be automated, but it seems like ease in the administration of points was left by the wayside after it was an obvious lesson learned from 2014-2015.

It's incredibly hard to justify blaming a person for what is pretty obviously a systemic issue.
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Unread 03-07-2016, 09:06 PM
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Re: MAR Competitions

Video replays would definitely be useful for playoff rounds. Yes it would take up time but the competitions are usually behind schedule anyway. The 2014 Mt Olive competition is a fantastic example. The winning team committed a tech foul that would've lost the competition for them. Someone had the match recorded and found the tech foul and went to bring it to the judges, but they didn't accept it as evidence.
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