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  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-13-2018, 10:02 AM
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Re: Vision during Auto

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Originally Posted by PeterK View Post
Does anyone have an idea when the Limelight cameras will be available again?
Last month, when I asked, they thought it would be October when they would have more.
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Unread 09-13-2018, 01:00 PM
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Re: Vision during Auto

With resources such as Grip and FRC-PDR, anyone with basic programming knowledge, a USB camera and an LED ring can make industry standard machine vision software.

As for camera suggestions: I like the genius 120 camera and any run of the mill IR USB camera for night surveillance (typically requires some easy hardware modification to make the IR LEDs always be on). IR cameras are especially cool because you don't have to worry about RGB/HSV threshold tuning, and they allow for insanely tight threshold values on retro reflective tap (250-255)
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Unread 09-13-2018, 01:21 PM
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Re: Vision during Auto

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loveless View Post
With resources such as Grip and FRC-PDR, anyone with basic programming knowledge, a USB camera and an LED ring can make industry standard machine vision software.

As for camera suggestions: I like the genius 120 camera and any run of the mill IR USB camera for night surveillance (typically requires some easy hardware modification to make the IR LEDs always be on). IR cameras are especially cool because you don't have to worry about RGB/HSV threshold tuning, and they allow for insanely tight threshold values on retro reflective tap (250-255)
Loads of issues with IR cameras from outside light sources and reflective surfaces, even with contour filtering. If you are playing in a venue that has sunlight, it's a real challenge. This can work but this isn't in the same realm of difficulty as using the Limelight or the JeVois.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 07:43 AM
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Re: Vision during Auto

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Originally Posted by marshall View Post
Loads of issues with IR cameras from outside light sources and reflective surfaces, even with contour filtering. If you are playing in a venue that has sunlight, it's a real challenge. This can work but this isn't in the same realm of difficulty as using the Limelight or the JeVois.
This past year, my team used Jevois with an infrared LED ring for tracking the retro reflective tape on the switch. We never had any issues with sunlight interfering with the tracking. Granted, this may prove to be a problem if the field is completely flooded with direct sunlight, then the camera might get fooled by reflections. I definitely believe that in the correct conditions, sunlight can interfere with infrared tracking, but our team competed at a venue where the field had some sunlight on it, and we never experienced such an issue. Additionally, even tracking a color of visible light (such as the ever common green light) would most likely experience the same issue with reflections from sunlight. So I don't feel that this issue is unique to infrared tracking.

Also, in order for Jevois to see infrared light, we had to do some surgery and slice the infrared filter off of the lens. Thankfully, Jevois now offers lenses without infrared filters.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 10:56 AM
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Re: Vision during Auto

Quote:
Originally Posted by marshall View Post
Loads of issues with IR cameras from outside light sources and reflective surfaces, even with contour filtering. If you are playing in a venue that has sunlight, it's a real challenge. This can work but this isn't in the same realm of difficulty as using the Limelight or the JeVois.
This past year, my team used Jevois with an infrared LED ring for tracking the retro reflective tape on the switch. We never had any issues with sunlight interfering with the tracking. Granted, this may prove to be a problem if the field is completely flooded with direct sunlight, then the camera might get fooled by reflections. I definitely believe that in the correct conditions, sunlight can interfere with infrared tracking, but our team competed at a venue where the field had some sunlight on it, and we never experienced such an issue. Additionally, even tracking a color of visible light (such as the ever common green light) would most likely experience the same issue with reflections from sunlight. So I don't feel that this issue is unique to infrared tracking. But I haven't done extensive testing

Also, in order for Jevois to see infrared light, we had to do some surgery and slice the infrared filter off of the lens. Thankfully, Jevois now offers lenses without infrared filters.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 11:37 AM
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Re: Vision during Auto

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamac2003 View Post
This past year, my team used Jevois with an infrared LED ring for tracking the retro reflective tape on the switch. We never had any issues with sunlight interfering with the tracking. Granted, this may prove to be a problem if the field is completely flooded with direct sunlight, then the camera might get fooled by reflections. I definitely believe that in the correct conditions, sunlight can interfere with infrared tracking, but our team competed at a venue where the field had some sunlight on it, and we never experienced such an issue. Additionally, even tracking a color of visible light (such as the ever common green light) would most likely experience the same issue with reflections from sunlight. So I don't feel that this issue is unique to infrared tracking. But I haven't done extensive testing

Also, in order for Jevois to see infrared light, we had to do some surgery and slice the infrared filter off of the lens. Thankfully, Jevois now offers lenses without infrared filters.
So I've been there and done this... Our main venue used to be the fabulous Dorton Arena in Raleigh NC as seen in these amazing photos from Danny Levenson:

http://dannylevenson.com/FIRST/Aeria...nal/index.html
http://dannylevenson.com/FIRST/Recyc...nal/index.html

Due to the ever changing lighting conditions, this lead to a lot of development on our end for filtering techniques. This included investigating IR light sources on the robot. I too have spent a number of hours taking apart webcams and removing filters.

I've even developed custom IR ring lights several years ago:
https://oshpark.com/shared_projects/KpVpAYz4

From everything I've looked at, IR is not the ideal solution for vision in FRC given that venues change so frequently and lighting conditions change from venue to venue... let alone within a venue. Daylight is way worse for IR reflections than halogen lamps, LEDs, or other lighting sources. The sun doesn't have a filter and the atmosphere isn't much of one.

I used to work at this tiny little company that makes LEDs and spent a lot of time talking about CRI and gaining an understanding of lighting from the product engineers when I was working there. It's a fascinating subject and I got bored at lunch a lot. They spend a lot of time trying to filter out bits of the spectrum.

In short, green is the way to go when talking about these silly retroreflective targets from everything I have seen and know. It's far less prone to the reflectance issues and HSV filtering is a well known problem in FRC and is solved. Not only that, I think for most teams the Limelight is the solution, in spite of its price. It just works.

Don't get me wrong, I love the JeVois and The Zebracorns are well known for our love of the Jetson+Zed combo but man, the limelight is hard to beat for most of FRC right now.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 12:23 PM
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Re: Vision during Auto

IR methods work just fine. At the crossroads regional the windows are especially bad. In 2013 at the pyramid, sunlight was shining through the targets. Of the teams I've help with over the years, IR systems have worked at every regional location (10+). It just comes down to to preference, really.

Also, IR less dont ruin a robot's color scheme.
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Unread 09-15-2018, 02:37 PM
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Re: Vision during Auto

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Originally Posted by Loveless View Post
IR methods work just fine. At the crossroads regional the windows are especially bad. In 2013 at the pyramid, sunlight was shining through the targets. Of the teams I've help with over the years, IR systems have worked at every regional location (10+). It just comes down to to preference, really.

Also, IR less dont ruin a robot's color scheme.
Would they work here?
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