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Unread 09-14-2018, 03:00 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

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Originally Posted by bobbysq View Post
The SPX is viable, but only if you already have SRX controllers, IMO. Currently, the only "advantage" an SPX has over a SPARK by itself is that you get to use the shiny new CAN bus. As others have said, using it to follow an SRX is a way to save some money instead of using all SRX controllers.
There's also physical "advantages" such as size and weight. Plus there are some under the hood features that don't require the use of a Talon SRX such as the ability to do motion profiling using CAN based sensors (like the Pigeon or an encoder on a CANifier) and being able to field upgrade the firmware as new features are added.

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We didn't run them on our drive only due to not being super certain about how well the plastic casing would hold up in a drive train application. However, I do not see any reason not to run them in the future.
That's understandable. We did quite a bit of thermal testing when we were exploring the plastic housing. This included constant 10-15A loads for several hours and 40A loads for 15 minutes. As you can see on page 12 of the Victor SPX User Guide the Victor SPX actually runs cooler than the old Victor SP for the first 8.5 minutes when running at a continuous 40A.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 03:24 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

Bring up the thought, should FIRST figure out how to offer teams Talon SPX (for all CAN teams) instead of SPARKs in the KoP?

We were mixed CAN and PWM this year, but the intent was to move towards CAN. We used SPARKs for intakes, but could use Victors if those were in the KoP. The $20 more (for two) may be an issue and also, certainly, being subsidized/donated by REV vs what CTRE does in FIRST Choice (and in the kit).

I hadn't thought seriously about limit switches for Victor SPX (which IIRC doesn't have this functionality) vs. SPARKs that already have it. I suppose you can add limit switches with CANifier. I suppose there are instances where a few VictorSPXs and a CANifier might be a preferable solution.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 03:25 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

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Originally Posted by Jon Jack View Post
That's understandable. We did quite a bit of thermal testing when we were exploring the plastic housing. This included constant 10-15A loads for several hours and 40A loads for 15 minutes. As you can see on page 12 of the Victor SPX User Guide the Victor SPX actually runs cooler than the old Victor SP for the first 8.5 minutes when running at a continuous 40A.
I can vouch for this too, we put our drive system through more abuse than most (the 8 drive motors collectively spiked over 400A on multiple occasions early in the season from various loads), 6 of the 8 motors ran on Victor SPXs mounted to plastic mounts and we never had any issues with excessive heating on the controllers (though the motors obviously ran hot on occasion).
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Unread 09-14-2018, 03:41 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

We tried 1 SRX & 2 SPX per drive gearbox (on triple-miniCIM) and had trouble with what we thought was getting the current limiting to work in follower mode... ended up going back to triple-SRX - need to revisit the topic outside of Build and see if we can tease out what was going wrong.

We used them elsewhere and they worked great. I love having everything on CAN, I love the tiny form factor, I love the low cost - not Spark cheap, but real close.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 04:14 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

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Originally Posted by s-neff View Post
We tried 1 SRX & 2 SPX per drive gearbox (on triple-miniCIM) and had trouble with what we thought was getting the current limiting to work in follower mode... ended up going back to triple-SRX - need to revisit the topic outside of Build and see if we can tease out what was going wrong.
Victor SPX doesn't support current limiting.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 04:18 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

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Originally Posted by ngreen View Post
Bring up the thought, should FIRST figure out how to offer teams Talon SPX (for all CAN teams) instead of SPARKs in the KoP?
With very few exceptions, things you see in the KoP are donated by their suppliers. In recent years, IFI has put more motor controllers into FIRST Choice than into Kickoff Kits. With Victor SP supplies exhausted*, it wouldn't shock me** to see SPXs in FIRST Choice this year.

*I do love that IFI seems to do one last blowout run of an outgoing motor controller for FIRST Choice. They had tons of Victor 888s in there when the SP/SRX came out.

**With the Rover Ruckus release, to the best of my knowledge I'm out of FIRST NDA secrets (including game, FIRST Choice, and Kit of Parts information) from my time in Kokomo. At this point, I'm a fan just like you.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 04:24 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s-neff View Post
We tried 1 SRX & 2 SPX per drive gearbox (on triple-miniCIM) and had trouble with what we thought was getting the current limiting to work in follower mode... ended up going back to triple-SRX - need to revisit the topic outside of Build and see if we can tease out what was going wrong.

We used them elsewhere and they worked great. I love having everything on CAN, I love the tiny form factor, I love the low cost - not Spark cheap, but real close.
Although Victor SPXs don't support current limits, it shouldn't be an issue in this configuration. So long as you set a limit on the SRX and the motors are similar, the current draw should be roughly evenly distributed across all the motors in the gearbox. The talon implements current limiting by modifying output voltage until the current is within the limit, and follower controllers match the output voltage of the master. Therefore, if the talon starts limiting current, the victors will follow.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 04:44 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

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Originally Posted by HD View Post
Victor SPX doesn't support current limiting.
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Although Victor SPXs don't support current limits, it shouldn't be an issue in this configuration. So long as you set a limit on the SRX and the motors are similar, the current draw should be roughly evenly distributed across all the motors in the gearbox. The talon implements current limiting by modifying output voltage until the current is within the limit, and follower controllers match the output voltage of the master. Therefore, if the talon starts limiting current, the victors will follow.
Right, it definitely doesn't support it as a built-in function, but set up in follow mode it should be able to pseduo-limit.

The key is probably how much any given setup "needs" aggressive limiting to avoid brownouts - we went for a single speed, aggressively fast gearing, with the assumption that we'd "fix brownouts in software", but ended up wrestling with the problem in a piecemeal way and after some other schedule slip threw in the towel on the drive SPXs to get to "known good" hardware in place.

In retrospect a significant amount of the problem (addressed after going back to 3x SRX) was our bad implementation of the new format of current limiting commands (too long a window, not a low enough limit, etc), so I'd love to revisit the problem.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 04:59 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

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Originally Posted by cbale2000 View Post
My only gripe with the Victor SPX is the apparent lack of current monitoring functionality. Though I understand this is likely a factor in the cost difference between the Victor and Talon, it's still a bit frustrating.
Is it feasible to do the current monitoring and current limiting by reading back the values from the PDP? I just started mentoring a team that has around 20 unused, in the box SPARKS for some reason. I like the advantages of the CAN-capable devices but the cost savings of using parts we already have is very compelling.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 05:08 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

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Originally Posted by s-neff View Post
Right, it definitely doesn't support it as a built-in function, but set up in follow mode it should be able to pseduo-limit.


[...]


In retrospect a significant amount of the problem (addressed after going back to 3x SRX) was our bad implementation of the new format of current limiting commands (too long a window, not a low enough limit, etc), so I'd love to revisit the problem.

We ran 1x SRX and 2x SPX per drive side this year (3 MiniCIM config) with no issues, and ran current limiting on the SRX after our first event. We ran it as a hard capped limit (i.e. time limit = 0, never allow the voltage to go above the limit) and that was sucessful at keeping all 3 motors at the same current per gearbox, even though only one motor was actually being monitored. Haven't tried it any other way, but anecdotally it worked for us as intended.


We will definitely use the SPX again, it was a perfect drop-in replacement for all followers. We made the conversion from PWM to CAN for the 2018 season, so the addition of the SPX to the market saved us a boatload of money.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 06:44 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

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Originally Posted by HD View Post
Victor SPX doesn't support current limiting.
If slaved to a SRX in a multi-motor-per-gearbox configuration with current limiting enabled on the SRX it is effectively current-limited.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 09:37 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

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Originally Posted by philso View Post
Is it feasible to do the current monitoring and current limiting by reading back the values from the PDP? I just started mentoring a team that has around 20 unused, in the box SPARKS for some reason. I like the advantages of the CAN-capable devices but the cost savings of using parts we already have is very compelling.
It's very possible, but the value is debateable. High latency from PDP observation -> report to RoboRIO -> reaction at controller means it's difficult to catch a brownout-inducing spike before it knocks you out, but if you wanted it for other reasons it's definitely possible.

Is it Necessary? Probably not. Current limiting technology is only important when you're pushing the envelope or made a mistake.

(In your shoes, I'd happily use up the Sparks.)
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Unread 09-14-2018, 09:43 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

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Originally Posted by philso View Post
Is it feasible to do the current monitoring and current limiting by reading back the values from the PDP? I just started mentoring a team that has around 20 unused, in the box SPARKS for some reason. I like the advantages of the CAN-capable devices but the cost savings of using parts we already have is very compelling.
In our experience, reading from the PDP to the Roborio is too slow. We more or less use Talon's for everything. We are using Victor SPX's on our offseason bots as slave's and they've been working well. Would recommend.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 09:47 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

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Originally Posted by s-neff View Post
It's very possible, but the value is debateable. High latency from PDP observation -> report to RoboRIO -> reaction at controller means it's difficult to catch a brownout-inducing spike before it knocks you out, but if you wanted it for other reasons it's definitely possible.

Is it Necessary? Probably not. Current limiting technology is only important when you're pushing the envelope or made a mistake.

(In your shoes, I'd happily use up the Sparks.)
Since we don't have the sort of budget where 20+ SPARKs are of insignificant value, we will probably use them in the upcomming season for applications like the Victor SRX. We have some Talons that we can use for applications that need that functionality.

If sample rate of the values from the PDP is too slow to do control, would it still be useful for stall detection, say for an elevator hitting the end-stops? One would only be stalling one or two motors and so much less likely to induce a brownout.
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Unread 09-14-2018, 10:13 PM
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Re: Is The Victor SPX Viable?

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Originally Posted by philso View Post
If sample rate of the values from the PDP is too slow to do control, would it still be useful for stall detection, say for an elevator hitting the end-stops? One would only be stalling one or two motors and so much less likely to induce a brownout.
You could.

You could also put a limit switch on the mechanism. Or an encoder on the drive shaft. Or a time limit on the calibration routine and grim acceptance that you're stalling for a period of time up to that limit.

Implementing this would be a neat trick though, and if a student implemented and explained it well the judges would likely be pretty impressed.
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