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Unread 11-09-2018, 12:49 AM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Originally Posted by Skyehawk View Post
For a pair of cities with (known acceptable) venues

Indianapolis and Denver is a very strong combo.

As is Indianapolis and Las Vegas (I have not factored in air-fare)
Did you calculate average driving time (or some other metric that accounts for team distribution) for these city pairs? As far as I can see, these maps donít take that into account. Iím interested in seeing how well your data matches mine.

Also, if Iím not mistaken, you currently have teams always going to their closer Championship regardless of the distribution that creates. So for Indianapolis and Las Vegas there are more than 3x as many teams going to Indy than Vegas. Obviously in the real world thatís not feasible. I wonder how your numbers would change if you forced the division to be about equal.
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Unread 11-09-2018, 07:27 AM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Originally Posted by AriMB View Post

You're probably right. Unfortunately, I can't reasonably predict what % of teams will fly at a given driving time, or the duration/price of flights between airports. Honestly, that's too big of a rabbit hole for me to jump into. Meanwhile, a long driving time is probably an okay stand-in for having to fly to your Championship.
Man. Rabbit hole is the nicest thing Iíve been called on here lately.

Realistically, I bet thereís some sort of number where ďno longer practical to dri eĒ comes in. Gut feel-

0-50 miles no hotel needed
50-600 miles driving
600+ flying


Ideally youíd want to minimize the number of people flying as itís likely the highest cost (and highest carbon foot print? Idk. Crap looks like I have another metric to add) and maximize people who donít need a hotel. If I were doing this Iíd add some sort of weightingís on these and compute that way.

Keep up the good work. Itís all purely academic because we donít have available the schedules for the venues but itís still a fun experiment.
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Unread 11-09-2018, 09:56 AM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Originally Posted by AriMB View Post
The results were too long to reasonably embed in this post, so you can find them here. The best pair is Cleveland, OH and Oklahoma City, OK at 11.09 hrs. Detroit/Houston is in the 8th percentile (#380) at 12.44 hrs.
This makes my heart happy. There's a fairly strong case to be made for Cleveland. It's a far cry from when our totally official tourist videos were created. For starters, there are three major sportsball stadiums all within a <2-mile radius, two of them literally right next to each other (with a plaza in the middle that can be sectioned off from traffic). One of those, the Q Arena (basketball/hockey/concerts), is undergoing a multi-million dollar renovation as we speak.


Hotels were built up specifically to support the RNC, so there's a lot of options in downtown itself, with plenty more within a 10-15 minute drive (which is way better now that they've redone a lot of the highways leading in to the city). There are a lot of things to do in downtown as well: The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, an interactive science museum, children's museum, a theater district, and much more. Food is pretty affordable, and there are a ton of great options.



The one downside I can think of is that CLE isn't an international destination airport anymore for most countries. However, it's only a 40-minute jump from ORD/MDW, and a pretty short flight from DTW as well.



We hosted the RNC with ~50k visitors successfully, and a lot of infrastructure was built up specifically for this event. We've also nabbed the 2019 MLB All-Star Game, which historically brings at least 100k people, if not more.
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Unread 11-09-2018, 10:25 AM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

Don't forget about the metro in Cleveland. I haven't used it since I was in college, and it wasn't the nicest thing... but it was reliable and ran on time. I haven't been back to Cleveland since graduation, it would be nice to get back and make a short visit back to Case sometime
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Unread 11-09-2018, 10:48 AM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Man. Rabbit hole is the nicest thing I’ve been called on here lately.

Realistically, I bet there’s some sort of number where “no longer practical to dri e” comes in. Gut feel-

0-50 miles no hotel needed
50-600 miles driving
600+ flying


Ideally you’d want to minimize the number of people flying as it’s likely the highest cost (and highest carbon foot print? Idk. Crap looks like I have another metric to add) and maximize people who don’t need a hotel. If I were doing this I’d add some sort of weighting’s on these and compute that way.

Keep up the good work. It’s all purely academic because we don’t have available the schedules for the venues but it’s still a fun experiment.
Ok so this wasn't too hard if I understand you correctly. I basically just took the same program from before, but instead of just using the driving time I created a function based on the time, called the Championships pair score. Golf rules apply; the lowest score is the "best" city pair. (code here) This score is calculated as follows:

If driving time is over 15 hrs -> score = 22 + (time-15)/4
If driving time is under 15 hrs -> score = time
If driving time is more than 1 hr -> add 3 points to score

This gives a flat rate penalty for having to fly, plus an increasing penalty as flight length increases. And also a flat rate penalty for having to stay in a hotel (or you can think of it as a reward for not having to stay in a hotel). The numbers here were arbitrarily chosen; there's no reason these numbers are any more correct than anyone else's best guess.

The results can be found here. Now the best city pair is Buffalo, NY and Kansas City, MO with a 14.69 score. Detroit/Houston is now in the 9th percentile (#392) with a 16.75 score. For the record, the best single city using this weighted ranking system is Indianapolis, IN at 17.06, which is in the 11th percentile.
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Last edited by AriMB : 11-09-2018 at 11:48 AM.
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Unread 11-09-2018, 11:32 AM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Originally Posted by AriMB View Post
Did you calculate average driving time (or some other metric that accounts for team distribution) for these city pairs? As far as I can see, these maps don’t take that into account. I’m interested in seeing how well your data matches mine.

Also, if I’m not mistaken, you currently have teams always going to their closer Championship regardless of the distribution that creates. So for Indianapolis and Las Vegas there are more than 3x as many teams going to Indy than Vegas. Obviously in the real world that’s not feasible. I wonder how your numbers would change if you forced the division to be about equal.
Candidate cities were selected via dead reckoning then examining the results. Nothing special. I did include the team distributions on the bottom, this count ONLY reflects teams that could physically drive to the location (i.e. Hawaii or Australia cant drive to Denver). In theory the lower #'s champs would host international teams. This also assumes every team has a equal chance of going to champs. (It would be interesting to run the numbers on the top 50th percentile of teams based on appearance at worlds in the last 4 years (of course normalized for younger teams)).

As far as forcing the division equal - this is difficult as there are hundreds of ways to draw a straight line and get a 50/50 split on team distribution, let alone a near infinite number if you don't have a straight line. Personally I think guess and check is the appropriate way to approach the identification of candidate cities (and let's not even consider #3champs )

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Originally Posted by synth3tk View Post
This makes my heart happy. There's a fairly strong case to be made for Cleveland. It's a far cry from when our totally official tourist videos were created. For starters, there are three major sportsball stadiums all within a <2-mile radius, two of them literally right next to each other (with a plaza in the middle that can be sectioned off from traffic). One of those, the Q Arena (basketball/hockey/concerts), is undergoing a multi-million dollar renovation as we speak.


Hotels were built up specifically to support the RNC, so there's a lot of options in downtown itself, with plenty more within a 10-15 minute drive (which is way better now that they've redone a lot of the highways leading in to the city). There are a lot of things to do in downtown as well: The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, an interactive science museum, children's museum, a theater district, and much more. Food is pretty affordable, and there are a ton of great options.

The one downside I can think of is that CLE isn't an international destination airport anymore for most countries. However, it's only a 40-minute jump from ORD/MDW, and a pretty short flight from DTW as well.

We hosted the RNC with ~50k visitors successfully, and a lot of infrastructure was built up specifically for this event. We've also nabbed the 2019 MLB All-Star Game, which historically brings at least 100k people, if not more.
So with the way that #2champs would likely be laid out - Cleveland (which is in a good location) would be the driving champs - stationed such that a large portion of the teams are within ~12 hrs of driving. The other champs would support the international/teams that have to fly. This international accommodating champs would best be located in a city with cheap airfare and decent connectivity (i.e. Las Vegas)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Man. Rabbit hole is the nicest thing I’ve been called on here lately.

Realistically, I bet there’s some sort of number where “no longer practical to dri e” comes in. Gut feel-

0-50 miles no hotel needed
50-600 miles driving
600+ flying


Ideally you’d want to minimize the number of people flying as it’s likely the highest cost (and highest carbon foot print? Idk. Crap looks like I have another metric to add) and maximize people who don’t need a hotel. If I were doing this I’d add some sort of weighting’s on these and compute that way.

Keep up the good work. It’s all purely academic because we don’t have available the schedules for the venues but it’s still a fun experiment.
So I would bracket this to minimize number of school/work days missed (i.e. no more than 5 hours off driving after work/school, then you tick into an extra day) this can be balanced with flying.

The carbon footprint is an interesting thing, I can point you to some literature on that topic if interested.

For those interested here is the best combo I have run so far, team distribution to both events is close, even closer if international teams go to Denver (or Las Vegas). The key here is managing the heavy distribution of teams in the NE quadrant of North America, so you are forced to split Minnesota & Texas from Michigan, Indiana & Ontario.
https://i.imgur.com/F50uGU9.jpg
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Last edited by Skyehawk : 11-09-2018 at 11:47 AM.
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Unread 11-09-2018, 11:38 AM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Originally Posted by AriMB View Post
If driving time is over 15 hrs -> score = 22 + (time-15)/4
If driving time is under 15 hrs -> score = time
If driving time is less than 1 hr -> add 3 points to score
Doesn't that mean driving 1 or 2 hours (1 or 2 points) is scored as better than less than one hour(3 point)? Shouldn't you just add 0 or take points off in that case?
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Unread 11-09-2018, 11:48 AM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Doesn't that mean driving 1 or 2 hours (1 or 2 points) is scored as better than less than one hour(3 point)? Shouldn't you just add 0 or take points off in that case?
You're right, I wrote that wrong. I meant to say "more than 1 hr". The calculation was programmed correctly. I changed the original post to reflect that.
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Unread 11-09-2018, 12:02 PM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Originally Posted by AriMB View Post
The results were too long to reasonably embed in this post, so you can find them here. The best pair is Cleveland, OH and Oklahoma City, OK at 11.09 hrs. Detroit/Houston is in the 8th percentile (#380) at 12.44 hrs.
Exciting (but not surprising) for me to see Buffalo near the top of this list. While I'm not going to go as far as saying Buffalo should be hosting CMP, I think it's conceivable to be in contention eventually, especially since the city just recently announced that they are (probably) going to be building a new convention center.

Things Buffalo has going for it:
- Reasonable driving distance from Michigan, Ontario, NE, and MAR
- Wings
- Reasonably accessible airport
- Tons of hotels and parking downtown
- Public transportation (kinda)
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Unread 11-09-2018, 12:14 PM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Originally Posted by briansmist View Post
Exciting (but not surprising) for me to see Buffalo near the top of this list. While I'm not going to go as far as saying Buffalo should be hosting CMP, I think it's conceivable to be in contention eventually, especially since the city just recently announced that they are (probably) going to be building a new convention center.

Things Buffalo has going for it:
- Reasonable driving distance from Michigan, Ontario, NE, and MAR
- Wings
- Reasonably accessible airport
- Tons of hotels and parking downtown
- Public transportation (kinda)
Availability of an NHL arena that there's no way will be in use during the playoffs....
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Unread 11-09-2018, 12:38 PM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Availability of an NHL arena that there's no way will be in use during the playoffs....
Got 'em!
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Unread 11-09-2018, 12:41 PM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Got 'em!
1. Put some respek on the Sabres, this is Our Yearô
2. One of the new convention center proposals suggests a location adjacent to the arena, which would be a reasonably-sized venue
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Unread 11-09-2018, 12:41 PM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Availability of an NHL arena that there's no way will be in use during the playoffs....
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Got 'em!
The Sabres would be the second Eastern Conference Wild Card team if the playoffs started today.
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Unread 11-09-2018, 12:47 PM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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1. Put some respek on the Sabres, this is Our Year™
2. One of the new convention center proposals suggests a location adjacent to the arena, which would be a reasonably-sized venue
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The Sabres would be the second Eastern Conference Wild Card team if the playoffs started today.
We are just a month into a season that runs until June, that enthusiasm is golden, but hang onto it for a few more months. #gojetsgo

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Unread 11-09-2018, 01:14 PM
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Re: pic: Championship Cities Driving Distances

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Don't forget about the metro in Cleveland. I haven't used it since I was in college, and it wasn't the nicest thing... but it was reliable and ran on time. I haven't been back to Cleveland since graduation, it would be nice to get back and make a short visit back to Case sometime
I didn't want to go on for ages, but yeah, the public transportation has gotten a lot better here. RTA has recently launched realtime APIs, so you can use an app like Transit for more accurate timing. There's also quite a bit of money going into updating some of the bus/rail stations.


Parking can be a bit problematic for larger events, especially with all the buses.
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