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Unread 10-27-2017, 03:26 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

Quote:
Originally Posted by solomondg View Post
Most likely the "new software" is just a package for Wpilib that uses specific PWM settings --- they can vary across motor controllers, and this one might be special for whatever reason.
Well, from my understanding, brush-less motors don't work directly with PWM; in other words, turning the signal on and off at various time intervals (what PWM does) will not work on a brush-less motor. The controller has to interpret the output of the PWM and create the correct timing and sequence of powering the windings.

This article actually helped me understand why the motors need a dedicated controller and code.
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Unread 10-27-2017, 03:42 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

This is SO COOL.

Does the released motor datasheet/information have a shaft diameter listed anywhere that I'm too blind to find? Seems like something that would be critical information for any of the other FRC vendors to build a gearbox adapter for it in time for the season...
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Unread 10-27-2017, 03:42 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

Does anyone happen to know what the cost of these will be? It would be nice to know if it'll be affordable for most teams or if it'll only be feasible for teams with plenty to spare.
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Unread 10-27-2017, 03:44 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

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Originally Posted by bobbysq View Post
Does anyone happen to know what the cost of these will be? It would be nice to know if it'll be affordable for most teams or if it'll only be feasible for teams with plenty to spare.
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Unread 10-27-2017, 03:54 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

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Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
Out of curiosity, what sort of information do you guys expect would be published on this new Game Data API that isn't already being published on the FRC Events API after each match (depending on the availability of internet access for the field, some data isn't posted until later)? Reference. Sure, it's per-alliance data, not per robot data... but nothing on the field or in the FMS (thus far) has tracked actions on a per-robot basis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes View Post
I'm thinking about time dependent data. Score breakdowns, or even just raw scores, at every 1 or 5 second time interval throughout the match.
This is exactly what I'm hoping will be released. Will allow for more fine-tuned predictive models.
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Last edited by Adithya Balaji : 10-27-2017 at 03:56 PM. Reason: Forgot first quote
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Unread 10-27-2017, 04:13 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

Quote:
Originally Posted by s-neff View Post
This is SO COOL.

Does the released motor datasheet/information have a shaft diameter listed anywhere that I'm too blind to find? Seems like something that would be critical information for any of the other FRC vendors to build a gearbox adapter for it in time for the season...
Looking at the spec sheet, there is a key that links the shaft to a gear. It seems to me they would be using this to attach gears from the current lineup, so probably same shaft size as the other motors.

The keyseat plus the motor mount that is identical to the CIM motors indicates that this can probably be used in the same gearboxes.

Does anyone know when the beta teams release their findings?
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Unread 10-27-2017, 04:17 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

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Originally Posted by MotorMentor View Post
Does anyone know when the beta teams release their findings?
Unless things are different this year, beta teams are supposed to release details sometime before or on Kickoff. I believe the last beta testing tasks should be done by December.
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Unread 10-27-2017, 04:18 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorMentor View Post
Does anyone know when the beta teams release their findings?
Beta teams should be giving presentations at off-seasons, workshops, and up through kickoff.
Any findings on this motor must wait until FIRST chooses the subset of Beta teams that will do the testing and gets the hardware out to them.

The Overall Beta schedule has us finished by the US Thanksgiving holiday.
That's to give FIRST time to incorporate any last minute findings, before it all gets packaged for Kickoff.
P.S. Results can come out pretty much as final information is known, but everything is still being developed, so you'll have to wait...
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Unread 10-27-2017, 04:37 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McLeod View Post
Beta teams should be giving presentations at off-seasons, workshops, and up through kickoff.
Any findings on this motor must wait until FIRST chooses the subset of Beta teams that will do the testing and gets the hardware out to them.

The Overall Beta schedule has us finished by the US Thanksgiving holiday.
That's to give FIRST time to incorporate any last minute findings, before it all gets packaged for Kickoff.
I am really jealous of those beta teams!
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Unread 10-27-2017, 04:49 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbysq View Post
Does anyone happen to know what the cost of these will be? It would be nice to know if it'll be affordable for most teams or if it'll only be feasible for teams with plenty to spare.
I think the bundling of the motor and motor control will make this an extremely desirable alternative, both functionally and financially. Plus, you are eliminating the time cost of soldering wires between the motors and controls, troubleshooting the wiring, buying additional connectors, and finding additional spots to mount motor controls.

Also, brushless motors have a history of running more efficiently, so they won't need the heatsinks/cooling systems typical of most brushed DC motors and controls. The higher efficiency also translates to less time spent charging/swapping batteries. Call me a dork, but I'm really excited to check these out in person.
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Unread 10-27-2017, 04:50 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caleb Sykes View Post
Real-time match info!?! If so, I'm going to be really upset if they don't publish the data online.
So teams can tell whether the robot launches the minibot up the pole before the lights turn yellow?
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Unread 10-27-2017, 05:10 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

So I did a bit of sleuthing. (It's like when you go on a first date then afterwards you go home and find out everything you can about the person online, except I went on a date with a DC brushless motor)

The datasheet provided by FIRST has two interesting pieces of information on it. The first is in the top right corner, it says "Hurst", a company that sells, among other things, brushless DC motors. The second is in the top left corner, it has a part number. The blog post said that these are "Nidec Dynamo" motors, which there is a category for on the Hurst website. That page is here. The same website also has a page for the "Green Drive" controller, here. There is some interesting information there on how to actually control these Green Drive controllers not provided in FIRST's spec sheet.

Some observations:

The part number scheme in the Hurst website does not match the provided part number for the motor on the FIRST spreadsheet. They are similar, but not exact. This makes it hard to match any of the motor specs to the motor on Hurst website via the part number.

The FIRST spec sheet lists the peak torque as 45 oz-in. However, this is not an option provided in the other part number system. The motor series' description lists the max torque at 50 oz-in, but the part number system only allows for a max of 40 oz-in. Either way, the max torques seem to be in 10 oz-in increments, so 45 oz-in would not be a consistent value.

The data sheet gives two mounting configurations, NEMA 17 and NEMA 23. According to the FIRST spec sheet, the motor is mounted on a 2" bolt circle with 4x #6-32 holes. This matches with the provided drawings for the NEMA 17 mounting style. The shaft diameter of that style is given as 0.3125", which is not an FRC common size. Hopefully one of the common suppliers will make pinions/sprockets/pulleys designed to interface directly with this shaft, or an adapter to transform it into a more common size. None of the mounting options, however, appear to have a keyway, which is clearly shown in FIRST's drawings.

As far as a built-in encoder/tachometer, the data sheet does specify a pin for "TACH SIGNAL", but it also specs the encoder ppm at 0. According to the Green Drive spec sheet, the tachometer for Dynamo motors has a resolution of 15 ppr. The sheet recommends that the tachometer, combined with the direction set by the direction pin, should be enough to determine speed and direction, though this may not be suitable for applications where the motor may be backdriven. Since the pins for the encoder on the Hurst spec sheet are marked as "blank" on the FIRST spreadsheet, I would assume that the motor does not have a built-in quadrature encoder. The corresponding part number digit for an encoder is likely 0 (i.e. no encoder) which would further this assumption, but I cannot be sure because, again, the part numbers do not line up correctly.

Buying the motors directly from Hurst gives prices in the hundreds of dollars each for the few options available, so hopefully FIRST will have gotten some kind of bulk deal to make them more reasonable for the average team. It would certainly seem so if they really only cost 57 credits as Marshall said. The blog post says they will be sold by AndyMark for teams who want to buy them with real money, and the AndyMark newsletter published today said that they have been working on new products, so I would expect to see them available for purchase sometime soon.

Overall, there seem to be a number of conflicts between the datasheet I found online and the one provided by FIRST. This leads me to believe that I am either a bad sleuth (and have successfully wasted all of your time), or FIRST has worked with Nitec to make a custom motor not normally sold within their Dynamo line (note: not what the blog says). Either way, it seems like this could either be a solid little motor or a waste of time depending on a number of factors, which remain to be seen.
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Unread 10-27-2017, 06:02 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AriMB View Post
So I did a bit of sleuthing. (It's like when you go on a first date then afterwards you go home and find out everything you can about the person online, except I went on a date with a DC brushless motor)

The datasheet provided by FIRST has two interesting pieces of information on it. The first is in the top right corner, it says "Hurst", a company that sells, among other things, brushless DC motors. The second is in the top left corner, it has a part number. The blog post said that these are "Nidec Dynamo" motors, which there is a category for on the Hurst website. That page is here. The same website also has a page for the "Green Drive" controller, here. There is some interesting information there on how to actually control these Green Drive controllers not provided in FIRST's spec sheet.

Some observations:

The part number scheme in the Hurst website does not match the provided part number for the motor on the FIRST spreadsheet. They are similar, but not exact. This makes it hard to match any of the motor specs to the motor on Hurst website via the part number.

The FIRST spec sheet lists the peak torque as 45 oz-in. However, this is not an option provided in the other part number system. The motor series' description lists the max torque at 50 oz-in, but the part number system only allows for a max of 40 oz-in. Either way, the max torques seem to be in 10 oz-in increments, so 45 oz-in would not be a consistent value.

The data sheet gives two mounting configurations, NEMA 17 and NEMA 23. According to the FIRST spec sheet, the motor is mounted on a 2" bolt circle with 4x #6-32 holes. This matches with the provided drawings for the NEMA 17 mounting style. The shaft diameter of that style is given as 0.3125", which is not an FRC common size. Hopefully one of the common suppliers will make pinions/sprockets/pulleys designed to interface directly with this shaft, or an adapter to transform it into a more common size. None of the mounting options, however, appear to have a keyway, which is clearly shown in FIRST's drawings.

As far as a built-in encoder/tachometer, the data sheet does specify a pin for "TACH SIGNAL", but it also specs the encoder ppm at 0. According to the Green Drive spec sheet, the tachometer for Dynamo motors has a resolution of 15 ppr. The sheet recommends that the tachometer, combined with the direction set by the direction pin, should be enough to determine speed and direction, though this may not be suitable for applications where the motor may be backdriven. Since the pins for the encoder on the Hurst spec sheet are marked as "blank" on the FIRST spreadsheet, I would assume that the motor does not have a built-in quadrature encoder. The corresponding part number digit for an encoder is likely 0 (i.e. no encoder) which would further this assumption, but I cannot be sure because, again, the part numbers do not line up correctly.

Buying the motors directly from Hurst gives prices in the hundreds of dollars each for the few options available, so hopefully FIRST will have gotten some kind of bulk deal to make them more reasonable for the average team. It would certainly seem so if they really only cost 57 credits as Marshall said. The blog post says they will be sold by AndyMark for teams who want to buy them with real money, and the AndyMark newsletter published today said that they have been working on new products, so I would expect to see them available for purchase sometime soon.

Overall, there seem to be a number of conflicts between the datasheet I found online and the one provided by FIRST. This leads me to believe that I am either a bad sleuth (and have successfully wasted all of your time), or FIRST has worked with Nitec to make a custom motor not normally sold within their Dynamo line (note: not what the blog says). Either way, it seems like this could either be a solid little motor or a waste of time depending on a number of factors, which remain to be seen.
FIRST may have just paid them to run a 12V test on an existing 24V motor and provide a datasheet

EDIT:
Doing a bit of research, look at page 23: http://www.hurst-motors.com/documents/TDE1006.pdf

DM3012-1063 just means it's a series 3 (20 oz-in torque), 12V motor. The 63 just appears to be a sequential customer number, so there appears to be no correlation to the other available models.

Last edited by Michael Hill : 10-27-2017 at 06:12 PM.
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Unread 10-27-2017, 06:31 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

My prediction - the field will have some sort of configuration that will be contained and available from the API. Maybe use for auto? It will have to do with how the game pieces are arranged or the field is set up. Since access is being provided by WPILIB, the robot will be able to access this field config and respond appropriately.

It would be pretty awesome for the robot to "talk" to the field to get this string and respond with a multitude of different autos.
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Unread 10-27-2017, 09:02 PM
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Re: FRC Blog - 2018 Beta Teams, Brushless Motors, and More!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorMentor View Post
Looking at the spec sheet, there is a key that links the shaft to a gear. It seems to me they would be using this to attach gears from the current lineup, so probably same shaft size as the other motors.

The keyseat plus the motor mount that is identical to the CIM motors indicates that this can probably be used in the same gearboxes.

Does anyone know when the beta teams release their findings?
The spec sheet is missing the shaft diameter along with the specifics of the key way, and more importantly, the mounting boss is 1” OD on the DM3012-1063 and .750 OD on the CIM - I wouldn’t say the mounting interfaces are compatable just yet.

The 2” OD bolt circle is likely just a coincidence - if they were trying to match the CIM, they’d have tapped for a #10 - not a #6.

All of that being said, it should be easy enough to make these work in a transmission originally intended for a CIM, drill out the mounting bore to 1” and figure out how to adapt to the shaft (if needed, it would be nice if the shaft is in fact 8mm, [I can’t imagine them key-ing anything smaller] but again it’s not listed) and you’d be good to go. Regarding the mounting screws, there should be 6-32 shoulder screws with a .1875 OD shoulder, but always double check to be sure.
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Last edited by thefro526 : 10-27-2017 at 09:05 PM. Reason: Shouldn’t type on my phone.
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