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Unread 12-04-2017, 09:45 AM
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Modular robot transportation

Hello friends, Quick question. if a team design a robots as a modular unit meaning the robot will be able to be torn apart an assembly at competition is it legal? if legal how the bag and tag procedure? as international team can we travel with our robot in modules bag and tagged and get to the event with the robot and assemble there?

Thanks for the help.
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Unread 12-04-2017, 10:01 AM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

I know that 4613 shipped their robot in checked bags this year. Here is a time-lapse of their rebuild. You might ask someone from their team how they did that and how it worked out for them.

So I know it can be done and it is legal (at least according to 2017 bag n' tag rules). I don't have the rules in front of me right now but if I remember correctly, you can ship your unassembled robot bagged and it would not count against your withholding allowance and be perfectly legal. Again that is assuming that the bag rules remain the same for 2018.

Edit: I found the rule

Quote:
R15. All ROBOT elements (including items intended for use during the competition in alternative
configurations of the ROBOT), with the exception of the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE per R21,
BUMPERS, and COTS items, must be bagged and sealed, by 04:59 UTC on Stop Build Day,
Wednesday, February 22, 2017.
As long as this rule remains the same, the process you described, of bagging the parts and assembling them at competition is perfectly legal.

Last edited by Thayer McCollum : 12-04-2017 at 10:09 AM.
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Unread 12-04-2017, 10:09 AM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

I remember asking this question in the past. If you aren't going to change anything on your robot with taking a module off and putting it back on for something like ease of access, then it is totally legal. However, if you are going to make it modular in order to switch between different mechanisms (like switching between a gear intake or shooter for different matches), then you'd have to get inspected each time you change your modules. For me, the hassle would be too much of a bother to consider it.
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Unread 12-04-2017, 10:11 AM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

Per R16 last year:
Quote:
For convenience, Teams may disassemble their ROBOT and use two (2) bags to “Bag and Tag” the pieces. However, no more than two (2) bags may be used and each bag must have its own numbered tag and entry on the ROBOT Lock-up Form.
You may certainly disassemble your robot to whatever degree you'd like to make it more easy to transport. However, all parts (outside of any withholding allowance, 30 lbs per R21 for 2017) has to be within those two bags, properly sealed.

Most teams that travel internationally workout shipping to their event for their robot. Please see the FIRST Robot Transportation page for more information on how to do so.
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Unread 12-04-2017, 10:11 AM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

The relevant rules here are
R15
Quote:
All ROBOT elements (including items intended for use during the competition in alternative configurations of the ROBOT), with the exception of the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE per R21, BUMPERS, and COTS items, must be bagged and sealed, by 04:59 UTC on Stop Build Day
And R16
Quote:
For convenience, Teams may disassemble their ROBOT and use two (2) bags to “Bag and Tag” the pieces. However, no more than two (2) bags may be used and each bag must have its own numbered tag and entry on the ROBOT Lock-up Form.
...and for reference, R21:
Quote:
At an Event, Teams may have access to a WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE is a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 30 lbs. (~13 kg.), brought to an event (or ROBOT Access Period) in addition to the bagged items, to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. With permission from another Team, Teams may also have access to FABRICATED ITEMS that are part of that other Team’s WITHOLDING ALLOWANCE to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE may only be brought into the Venue when the Team initially loads in at the Event. Items made at an Event do not count towards this weight limit.
Source

..so you can break the robot into 2 separate pieces. If you wish to use the witholding allowance, you could potentially break it up even further.
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Unread 12-04-2017, 10:15 AM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon5638 View Post
I remember asking this question in the past. If you aren't going to change anything on your robot with taking a module off and putting it back on for something like ease of access, then it is totally legal. However, if you are going to make it modular in order to switch between different mechanisms (like switching between a gear intake or shooter for different matches), then you'd have to get inspected each time you change your modules. For me, the hassle would be too much of a bother to consider it.
Not what was being asked, I'm afraid. This one's for transportation--make it disassemble into and reassemble from a suitcase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thayer McCollum View Post
I know that 4613 shipped their robot in checked bags this year. Here is a time-lapse of their rebuild. You might ask someone from their team how they did that and how it worked out for them.

So I know it can be done and it is legal (at least according to 2017 bag n' tag rules). I don't have the rules in front of me right now but if I remember correctly, you can ship your unassembled robot bagged and it would not count against your withholding allowance and be perfectly legal. Again that is assuming that the bag rules remain the same for 2018.

Edit: I found the rule



As long as this rule remains the same, the process you described, of bagging the parts and assembling them at competition is perfectly legal.
3882 did the same thing, IIRC. It was fun asking to see their robot and then having them open a suitcase and there everything was, in a bag. A couple years before they'd done the same thing with sticking their robot in a crate.


Goes like this: Bag the parts (in 2 bags if need be), stick bag(s) in suitcase(s), enter the event and open the suitcase(s) to show the inspectors what you have. Going home you won't need the bags (unless you qualify for Championship).

You could also use a shipping crate and avoid the problem, but then you have freight fees which could get really expensive. I'm not sure if there's a FedEx voucher for teams in your situation or not but it'd be worth looking into.
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Unread 12-04-2017, 10:20 AM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Not what was being asked, I'm afraid. This one's for transportation--make it disassemble into and reassemble from a suitcase.

3882 did the same thing, IIRC. It was fun asking to see their robot and then having them open a suitcase and there everything was, in a bag. A couple years before they'd done the same thing with sticking their robot in a crate.


Goes like this: Bag the parts (in 2 bags if need be), stick bag(s) in suitcase(s), enter the event and open the suitcase(s) to show the inspectors what you have. Going home you won't need the bags (unless you qualify for Championship).

You could also use a shipping crate and avoid the problem, but then you have freight fees which could get really expensive. I'm not sure if there's a FedEx voucher for teams in your situation or not but it'd be worth looking into.
thanks that is what i'm asking, all responses are really helpfull
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Unread 12-04-2017, 10:29 AM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

Quote:
Originally Posted by brandon5638 View Post
However, if you are going to make it modular in order to switch between different mechanisms (like switching between a gear intake or shooter for different matches), then you'd have to get inspected each time you change your modules. For me, the hassle would be too much of a bother to consider it.
Not quite!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2017 R04
The ROBOT weight must not exceed 120 lbs. When determining weight, the basic ROBOT structure and all elements of all additional MECHANISMS that might be used in different configurations of the ROBOT shall be weighed together.
For the purposes of determining compliance with the weight limitations, the following items are excluded:
  • A. ROBOT BUMPERS
  • B. ROBOT battery and its associated half of the Anderson cable quick connect/disconnect pair (including no more than 12 in. (~30 cm) of cable per leg, the associated cable lugs, connecting bolts, and insulation)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2017 I03
Bring it all to Inspection. At the time of Inspection, the ROBOT must be presented with all MECHANISMS (including all COMPONENTS of each MECHANISM), configurations, and decorations that will be used on the ROBOT during the competition event. It is acceptable, however, for a ROBOT to play MATCHES with a subset of the MECHANISMS that were present during Inspection. Only MECHANISMS that were present during the Inspection may be added, removed or reconfigured between MATCHES. If MECHANISMS are changed between MATCHES, the reconfigured ROBOT must still meet all Inspection criteria.
So, using last year's rules, you may swap out modules without re-inspection as long as all of them where inspected and the total weight of all of them is within the weight limit.
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Unread 12-04-2017, 11:02 AM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

Quote:
Originally Posted by MuskieProgramme View Post
The relevant rules here are
R15


And R16


...and for reference, R21:


Source

..so you can break the robot into 2 separate pieces. If you wish to use the witholding allowance, you could potentially break it up even further.
The way you worded your statement above is a bit misleading, so I want to make sure this is made clear.

You can use up to 2 bags to "bag and tag" your robot. However within each bag, the robot can be broken up into as many parts as you wish. Theoretically you could have nothing but individual parts in each bag with absolutely nothing assembled (I have indeed seen this at the start of an event, too many times unfortunately). This means in one bag I could have a drivetrain assembly, an intake assembly, and a climbing assembly, while in a 2nd bag I could have a hopper assembly, and a shooter assembly (obviously using last season for this example).

In addition, I could have 2 different intake assemblies, say one for gears and one for balls. I can have both of these sub-assemblies in one of my two allowed bags. As long as I include both of these mechanisms during inspection, I can swap back and forth between these two mechanisms without needing to be reinspected every time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeeTwo
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2017 I03
Bring it all to Inspection. At the time of Inspection, the ROBOT must be presented with all MECHANISMS (including all COMPONENTS of each MECHANISM), configurations, and decorations that will be used on the ROBOT during the competition event. It is acceptable, however, for a ROBOT to play MATCHES with a subset of the MECHANISMS that were present during Inspection. Only MECHANISMS that were present during the Inspection may be added, removed or reconfigured between MATCHES. If MECHANISMS are changed between MATCHES, the reconfigured ROBOT must still meet all Inspection criteria.
So, using last year's rules, you may swap out modules without re-inspection as long as all of them where inspected and the total weight of all of them is within the weight limit.
This is actually something I'm not sure is entirely clear in the rules. If I have two different intake assemblies as an example, and I want to switch between using the two for different matches, I'm not sure the wording of the quoted rule above stipulates that both mechanisms must be included in the weighing of the robot simultaneously. The fact that they include the word "reconfigured" (emphasized above) seems to allow for having multiple configurations of the robot that include uniquely different subsystems. I read this as being able to have all different configurations inspected at the beginning of the event, and being able to use any of those inspected configurations throughout the event at my choosing without having to be reinspected after a change from one inspected configuration to another.

Perhaps an LRI or Al himself could shed some more light on this to verify my thoughts above or tell me I'm way off.
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Unread 12-04-2017, 11:08 AM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick_Coussens View Post
The way you worded your statement above is a bit misleading, so I want to make sure this is made clear.

You can use up to 2 bags to "bag and tag" your robot. However within each bag, the robot can be broken up into as many parts as you wish. Theoretically you could have nothing but individual parts in each bag with absolutely nothing assembled (I have indeed seen this at the start of an event, too many times unfortunately). This means in one bag I could have a drivetrain assembly, an intake assembly, and a climbing assembly, while in a 2nd bag I could have a hopper assembly, and a shooter assembly (obviously using last season for this example).

In addition, I could have 2 different intake assemblies, say one for gears and one for balls. I can have both of these sub-assemblies in one of my two allowed bags. As long as I include both of these mechanisms during inspection, I can swap back and forth between these two mechanisms without needing to be reinspected every time.



This is actually something I'm not sure is entirely clear in the rules. If I have two different intake assemblies as an example, and I want to switch between using the two for different matches, I'm not sure the wording of the quoted rule above stipulates that both mechanisms must be included in the weighing of the robot simultaneously. The fact that they include the word "reconfigured" (emphasized above) seems to allow for having multiple configurations of the robot that include uniquely different subsystems. I read this as being able to have all different configurations inspected at the beginning of the event, and being able to use any of those inspected configurations throughout the event at my choosing without having to be reinspected after a change from one inspected configuration to another.

Perhaps an LRI or Al himself could shed some more light on this to verify my thoughts above or tell me I'm way off.
Well I Am getting a lot of good information thanks for your clarifications.
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Unread 12-04-2017, 11:12 AM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick_Coussens View Post
This is actually something I'm not sure is entirely clear in the rules. If I have two different intake assemblies as an example, and I want to switch between using the two for different matches, I'm not sure the wording of the quoted rule above stipulates that both mechanisms must be included in the weighing of the robot simultaneously. The fact that they include the word "reconfigured" (emphasized above) seems to allow for having multiple configurations of the robot that include uniquely different subsystems. I read this as being able to have all different configurations inspected at the beginning of the event, and being able to use any of those inspected configurations throughout the event at my choosing without having to be reinspected after a change from one inspected configuration to another.

Perhaps an LRI or Al himself could shed some more light on this to verify my thoughts above or tell me I'm way off.
I'm not an LRI, just an experienced RI.

Start with R04. R04. The ROBOT weight must not exceed 120 lbs. When determining weight, the basic ROBOT structure and all elements of all additional MECHANISMS that might be used in different configurations of the ROBOT shall be weighed together. [Emphasis mine. Note that this excludes bumpers and batteries.]

Thus, if you have two intakes (one gear-only and one fuel+gear, let's say), they both go on the scale together, along with the rest of the robot. If you forget one, you're stuck with the one you put on the robot unless you re-inspect. Doesn't apply to identical spares, though.
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Unread 12-04-2017, 11:25 AM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick_Coussens View Post
...This is actually something I'm not sure is entirely clear in the rules. If I have two different intake assemblies as an example, and I want to switch between using the two for different matches, I'm not sure the wording of the quoted rule above stipulates that both mechanisms must be included in the weighing of the robot simultaneously. The fact that they include the word "reconfigured" (emphasized above) seems to allow for having multiple configurations of the robot that include uniquely different subsystems. I read this as being able to have all different configurations inspected at the beginning of the event, and being able to use any of those inspected configurations throughout the event at my choosing without having to be reinspected after a change from one inspected configuration to another.
The usual comment about next years rules may be different. The inspected robot must be under 120lbs. That includes all mechanisms. Anything that puts the robot over 120 lb is by definition not part of the robot. You can remove/add inspected component without re-inspection, but if your robot appearance changes drastically expect questions. If you do not use all the components in a match, the match weight will be less than the inspected weight. Every time you have the robot reinspected, all components need to be present. In most venues it will be reweighed. If you add anything that puts the robot over 120 lb you will have to remove something to bring it under 120lb. The removed components become not part of the robot. IF you add them back, you will have to get reinspected.
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Unread 12-04-2017, 02:04 PM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
I'm not an LRI, just an experienced RI.

Start with R04. R04. The ROBOT weight must not exceed 120 lbs. When determining weight, the basic ROBOT structure and all elements of all additional MECHANISMS that might be used in different configurations of the ROBOT shall be weighed together. [Emphasis mine. Note that this excludes bumpers and batteries.]

Thus, if you have two intakes (one gear-only and one fuel+gear, let's say), they both go on the scale together, along with the rest of the robot. If you forget one, you're stuck with the one you put on the robot unless you re-inspect. Doesn't apply to identical spares, though.
Correct interpretation. One robot, two intakes, different configs, both must be on the scale at the same time and at 120.0 or less. Under last year's rules. No comment on 2018 as they are not published yet.
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Unread 12-04-2017, 02:20 PM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

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Originally Posted by Rosiebotboss View Post
Correct interpretation. One robot, two intakes, different configs, both must be on the scale at the same time and at 120.0 or less. Under last year's rules. No comment on 2018 as they are not published yet.
The other option is getting reinspecting (and reweighed) every time you switch "configurations"
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Unread 12-04-2017, 02:25 PM
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Re: Modular robot transportation

I love all responses and some are super informative. But I will like to make clear that our intentions are purely for transport, as cool as it sound using different modules and different configuration that is not what we want. we want to be able to transport the robot basically inside Check bags for easy of shipping as international team.
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