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Unread 01-12-2018, 10:55 AM
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1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

Per R01:

Quote:
The ROBOT (excluding BUMPERS) must have a FRAME PERIMETER, contained within the BUMPER ZONE, that is comprised of fixed, non-articulated structural elements of the ROBOT. Minor protrusions no greater than ľ in. (~6.3 mm) such as bolt heads, fastener ends, weld beads, and rivets are not considered part of the FRAME PERIMETER.
Is it reasonable to assume that the phrasing 'such as bolt heads, fastener ends, weld beads, and rivets' would also include gusset plates, so long as they were at or under 1/4" protrusion from perimeter? I would like to be comfortable with an answer before we weld these gussets to our frame... kind of hard to undo.
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Unread 01-12-2018, 10:58 AM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

Please note that any answers to this question are unofficial, and the final decision is up to the robot inspector. I would encourage you to ask at the official FRC Q+A to get a response that will hold more substance should an inspector think that your robot is illegal.

"The official answer to Q+A question ### was ..." holds a lot more weight than "Some guy on Chief Delphi said ..."

That being said I would ask you to consider the fact that gusset plates tend to have larger surface areas than bolt heads or weld beads. I am not sure if that will have any effect on the rule. Either way I would recommend building a bit smaller than the maximum size (0.5-1" less in each dimension) so that you don't get tripped up by stuff like this.
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Last edited by pkrishna3082 : 01-12-2018 at 11:02 AM.
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Unread 01-12-2018, 11:01 AM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

I interpret the rule as allowing any protrusion less than 1/4", as the examples are list with "such as" and with "etc." at the end in R02.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pkrishna3082 View Post
Please note that any answers to this question are unofficial, and the final decision is up to the robot inspector. I would encourage you to ask at the official FRC Q+A to get a response that will hold more substance should an inspector think that your robot is illegal.

"The official answer to Q+A question ### was ..." holds a lot more weight than "Some guy on Chief Delphi said ..."

That being said I would tell you to consider the fact that gusset plates tend to have larger surface areas than bolt heads or weld beads. I am not sure if that will have any effect on the rule but you will most likely be fine with 1/8" gussets for example. Either way I would recommend building a bit smaller than the maximum size (0.5-1" less in each dimension) so that you don't get tripped up by stuff like this.
However, I would also recommend this, as people will interpret the rule differently.
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Last edited by ctt956 : 01-12-2018 at 11:03 AM.
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Unread 01-12-2018, 11:11 AM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

Keeping in mind that only this year's rules are the rules... Last year gusset plates were not considered minor protusions. Too much area was the logic behind that I believe. Also keep in mind that the maximum external dimensions are an absolute. They don not allow for minor protrusions.
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Unread 01-12-2018, 11:23 AM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

Echoing the unofficial nature of the answers here. I believe the answer would come down to the string test. If your gusset plates end up inside the string, they will count.
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Unread 01-12-2018, 11:24 AM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

I see there being a big difference between gusset plates and bolt heads. I would not consider a gusset plate a "minor protrusion".
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Unread 01-12-2018, 12:15 PM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

As others said, I would not count gusset plates as minor protrusions. Last year my team had the very end of round shafts sticking out with snap rings on the end (acting as a long bolt almost) and we were very cautious about that. I would ask First Q & A but I would not have gusset plates outside my frame perimeter.
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Unread 01-12-2018, 12:22 PM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

It would probably be a good idea to make your frame dimensions just a bit smaller so that the thickness of a gusset would not raise such questions. We have typically made the length and width each 1/2" narrower than the maximum allowed. There won't be that much less space to install components.
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Unread 01-12-2018, 12:30 PM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

It's not too late for this advice: DON'T design your robot to the maximum allowed size. Make it small enough that minor protrusions, gussets, etc. don't end up becoming a point of contention with the inspectors, and a source of heartache for your team.
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Unread 01-12-2018, 12:33 PM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
It's not too late for this advice: DON'T design your robot to the maximum allowed size. Make it small enough that minor protrusions, gussets, etc. don't end up becoming a point of contention with the inspectors, and a source of heartache for your team.
^^^^^
Designing an inch or so less than frame perimeter max on each side shouldn't change your capabilities and makes for MUCH less hassle/concern during inspection. Same goes for designing to robot to be 5lbs under the weight limit (although that's often much harder)
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Unread 01-12-2018, 12:40 PM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
It's not too late for this advice: DON'T design your robot to the maximum allowed size. Make it small enough that minor protrusions, gussets, etc. don't end up becoming a point of contention with the inspectors, and a source of heartache for your team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chandrew View Post
^^^^^
Designing an inch or so less than frame perimeter max on each side shouldn't change your capabilities and makes for MUCH less hassle/concern during inspection. Same goes for designing to robot to be 5lbs under the weight limit (although that's often much harder)
One of the things I have learned from doing new product development and manufacturing support for over 30 years is that if you are designing right to the limits, you are probably doing something wrong.
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Unread 01-12-2018, 01:42 PM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMiller2559 View Post
Echoing the unofficial nature of the answers here. I believe the answer would come down to the string test. If your gusset plates end up inside the string, they will count.
This, on both counts. A plate which contacts the taut perimeter string IS the frame perimeter at that point.
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Unread 01-12-2018, 02:33 PM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

We typically build ~.5 inch under the frame perimeter to allow for gussets and minor faults. I'd highly recommend doing this.
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Unread 01-12-2018, 07:16 PM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

All of the things listed prior to the etc are fasteners of some type. That means anything else on the list implied by the etc would also need to be fasteners. Gusset plates are not fasteners

That being said, if they become part of your frame perimeter then you donít have any problems.
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Unread 01-13-2018, 08:48 PM
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Re: 1/4" Frame Perimeter Protrusion Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonRotolo View Post
That being said, if they become part of your frame perimeter then you donít have any problems.
Unless they cause the frame perimeter to not fit in a 33" x 28" rectangle.
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