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Unread 05-18-2018, 11:04 PM
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Re: Need opinions on this red card

Quote:
Originally Posted by gorrilla View Post
In my generalization I'm excluding auto and end game points, assuming a shelf bot can(in this year as an example, score a cube) and then get end game points by driving
This can be problematic when a lot of defense happens in the endgame. Shrug.
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  #47   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-18-2018, 11:07 PM
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Re: Need opinions on this red card

Quote:
Originally Posted by gorrilla View Post
In my generalization I'm excluding auto and end game points, assuming a shelf bot can(in this year as an example, score a cube) and then get end game points by driving
Defense in Auto is a thing tho....
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  #48   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 05-18-2018, 11:10 PM
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Re: Need opinions on this red card

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Originally Posted by JosephC View Post
Do you really think it's inspiring to build a robot that can't even play the game? You REALLY think that matches the goals of FIRST as an organization?
Uh yeah.
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Unread 05-18-2018, 11:15 PM
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Re: Need opinions on this red card

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Originally Posted by gorrilla View Post
Uh yeah.
You know, now that I have spent some time self-reflecting and re-appreciating all that FRC is, you are right.

I apologize!
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Unread 05-18-2018, 11:18 PM
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Re: Need opinions on this red card

Quote:
Originally Posted by JosephC View Post
You know, now that I have spent some time self-reflecting and re-appreciating all that FRC is, you are right.

I apologize!
Hey glad you could understand the viewpoint im coming from bro.no problem
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Unread 05-23-2018, 02:13 PM
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Re: Need opinions on this red card

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajdaniel17 View Post
https://clips.twitch.tv/DeadPrettiestEyeballSoonerLater

In the video you can see 1817 pin 6111. The argument was that 1817 followed 6111. In the rule book it talks about pinning on G14.

Please tell us if the red card is justifiable and why, or why not.
I can't quite make it out in that video. But, isn't the ref in question one of your mentors? If not, the mentor you had there could likely provide a bit more insight than anyone here can. I'd be curious to hear their thoughts.

As far as the call, I can go either way on this one. There were a couple of times the pinned robot appeared to quickly drive towards 1817. For the most part, they were driving in a direction that wasn't towards 1817. In those cases, it requires 6 feet of distance. It's conceivably possible for you to pin a robot for 2+ minutes with only a second or so of contact if they drive away and you follow. It seems awkward. But, that's the way the rule is worded. You never get six feet away. They never drive towards you.

That said, I think it'd have helped you all if the ref would have kept the visible count going. I know you all watch me closely when I'm making counts against you just based on how quickly you react to different times in my count. I imagine you were doing the same here and would have reacted differently if the arm was still chopping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taggerun View Post
I hate saying this, but why does it matter now? The match is over, and what is done is done. I don't see why making a post about the red card is necessary. I don't feel like this thread id OK. I feel like this is a venting thread more than a discussion thread. This is a venting thread because you disagree with everyone even when the rule is pretty clear about pinning.
Thanks,
Taggerun
By opening up this thread and remaining civil, they gain the ability to get multiple perspectives and try to understand as much of the situation as they possibly can. Growth is always important.

I'm also not as sure as you are this is a clear ruling. For example, watch the pinned robot at 77 seconds remaining in the match. Would you consider this motion to be in the direction of 1817? If so, the rule clearly states to wave off the count and end it there. If you wave it off, that's 11 seconds from the start of the video. Is that the same red card?

You might see me a bit in these kinds of threads. I often come into these threads specifically to get more perspectives and see how other people interpret the same rules I read and interpret. I'm actually a bit surprised how one sided this discussion has been given the video. I could make a rational argument for both the pin continuing and being stopped. It's far from "clear."

I'd say your post was far more along the lines of "venting" than the original post here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Question:
After T=7s or so, what is preventing motion of the pinnee to get away? They're past the robot at the switch...
I'm not really sure this matters. Pins don't require contact at any point. Take, for example, a robot in a corner. If another robot positions itself such that the robot cannot move away from its current position, doesn't that match the definition of a pin?

Once a pin count has started, there are two ways for it to end:
1) pinning robot gets 6 ft away
2) pinned robot "follows" (probably better understand as drives towards) the pinning robot

If neither of those occur, the pin count shouldn't end. If the robot is able to move in any direction but neither of those two take place, would it matter currently?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
I believe that question needs to be addressed. Is a pin a pin when there is literally nothing there to be pinned against? (See also: Is a T-bone pin a pin?)
The first one I'm assuming you're looking for a way to define a pin such that at every second in the pin count, the definition of pin is met currently. Is that correct? If so, I'd love to hear how you word this that isn't easy to exploit defensively.

For the second point, I'd say it depends. If a robot is T-boned and moving, I'm not sure I'd call that a pin. If they're clearly unable to move while trying, I'd likely argue it was a pin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Also: Why was the ref not continuing to count? (Though, to be fair, he never signaled the end of the pin.)
As I pointed out to the OP, I think this should have happened. They're a very defensive team and carefully watch referees to avoid committing penalties. The lack of a count took away a tool the team uses very well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
Strictly speaking, the clearance wasn't made for the required time. However, I think what OP is thinking is that the formerly(?)-pinned team deliberately stayed in that window. Thus the question begins, is this an extended pin, or is this a C07 situation, or is this a bad call?
I'm not sure they believe that. I didn't see them make that claim anywhere. I think it's more likely they believed the pin was over because there was no motion from the referee. It's just as rational to believe the pin count ended and the referee forgot to wave it off as it is to believe the referee is counting the pin in their head. In fact, I'd say that's probably the more logical assumption.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
I think this one needed a very specific discussion with the Head Ref in the box. Unfortunately it's probably too late now. Discussion would be referencing the "they moved in on us and chased us", as well as "The ref didn't keep counting, just so you're aware".
It depends on what you're calling "too late." Offseason events are often a great time to get fresh blood into volunteer roles. Any new ref volunteers at that event can take a look at this and get to know just how close various things were. I also know the head ref in this video spends a good deal of time between events taking a look at various calls to get things as fair as possible for events. As pinning is a rule that, barring Recycle Rush, is likely to come back year after year, there's always a process to look at these more interesting pinning cases to discuss what would be ideal.

That's ignoring the value to the team gains by seeking more perspective. From my experience, 1817 is a team that excels at taking feedback and implementing that feedback to reduce the number of calls they get. I'd be rather surprised if that isn't the goal here.
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Unread 05-23-2018, 10:40 PM
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Re: Need opinions on this red card

Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffB View Post
I'm not really sure this matters. Pins don't require contact at any point. Take, for example, a robot in a corner. If another robot positions itself such that the robot cannot move away from its current position, doesn't that match the definition of a pin?
Yes, I understand what you're trying to say. But my point is that AT THE TIME I MENTION, there is no. way. that that robot is pinned. It's untouched, with a clean run back through Null Territory, nobody in the way. It's not being prevented from moving anywhere except back towards the switch. The only reason it's still "pinned" is because the pinning robot isn't 6' away.


Quote:
The first one I'm assuming you're looking for a way to define a pin such that at every second in the pin count, the definition of pin is met currently. Is that correct? If so, I'd love to hear how you word this that isn't easy to exploit defensively.

For the second point, I'd say it depends. If a robot is T-boned and moving, I'm not sure I'd call that a pin. If they're clearly unable to move while trying, I'd likely argue it was a pin.
For both of those, there's actually the same point. What I'm specifically saying is that a pin call usually requires something to be pinned against , or blocked around (another robot, the rail, game pieces)--there's nothing specifically saying that a T-bone or similar is pinned or not. In this specific case, that's true for the first few seconds, and then intermittently true.




Quote:
I'm not sure they believe that. I didn't see them make that claim anywhere. I think it's more likely they believed the pin was over because there was no motion from the referee. It's just as rational to believe the pin count ended and the referee forgot to wave it off as it is to believe the referee is counting the pin in their head. In fact, I'd say that's probably the more logical assumption.
They did not. But I would be wondering if the thought wasn't going through their minds, somewhere...



Quote:
It depends on what you're calling "too late."
At the event too late, or too late to get the call reviewed by the person that can make the change.
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