Go to Post we were sick and tired of compromises: "speed or torque", "traction or maneuverability", etc.; bump that, we want it all. all we had to compromise was simplicity. - RogerR [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #91   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 09:53 AM
MikLast's Avatar
MikLast MikLast is offline
Eats Tableau for Breakfast
AKA: Mikal Dieatrick
no team (Volunteer)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Medical Lake, WA
Posts: 1,276
MikLast has a reputation beyond reputeMikLast has a reputation beyond reputeMikLast has a reputation beyond reputeMikLast has a reputation beyond reputeMikLast has a reputation beyond reputeMikLast has a reputation beyond reputeMikLast has a reputation beyond reputeMikLast has a reputation beyond reputeMikLast has a reputation beyond reputeMikLast has a reputation beyond reputeMikLast has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
I've seen just the opposite of that when once the issues are resolved they win a regional.
I mean sure, thats true. Theres the team at Shenzhen that came with nothing and got a working bot that was in the top 8. Yeah, I bet that was really inspiring for them.

We dont really hear about the teams that aren't inspired though. You arent going to know as a layman if a team becomes inspired because of a bad year. It could easily be the thing that shuts them down, either to poor attendance or the school/main sponsor pulling the plug. All this does is add .25in basically to the current designs to make more bots legal and less bots not on the field during matches. Sure, an extra quarter of an inch would be nice, but us not having it compared to 20+%* of the field at our week 1 event trying to make something that can compete? Thats a perfectly okay tradeoff to me. Many teams will have other obstacles throughout their events to overcome.

*Math is based off this post and this thread.
__________________


Join the FRC Discord!
FRC4513 (Circuit Breakers)
*Student: 2014-2017
*Drive Coach: 2016-2017

Volunteer
A/V: West Valley, PNW DCMP 2018
Reply With Quote
  #92   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:00 AM
Daniel_LaFleur's Avatar
Daniel_LaFleur Daniel_LaFleur is offline
Mad Scientist
AKA: Me
FRC #2040 (DERT)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 2,319
Daniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Daniel_LaFleur
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by marshall View Post
So blue banner then? Success is defined in different ways for different folks mind you but in your example they went on to win the event. If that same team had lost because they never passed inspection and just kept working to solve issues, would it have been as inspiring?
Marshall,

You've been in this as long as I have. You know that inspiration is not predicated on success on the field.

I've had a team inspired by having 1 Frisbee scored in an off season event, as well as winning a blue banner after being 30 lbs overweight on that Thursday and having our 4:1 Tempered Banebots carrier plates not show up at the regional as promised.

Overcoming adversity is inspiring, more so than just changing the rules.

NASAs 'finest hour' was overcoming adversity.
__________________
"We are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. "
- Tennyson, Ulysses

Last edited by Daniel_LaFleur : 02-14-2018 at 10:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #93   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:02 AM
Ginger Power's Avatar
Ginger Power Ginger Power is offline
Founder of COR Robotics
AKA: Ryan Swanson
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,479
Ginger Power has a reputation beyond reputeGinger Power has a reputation beyond reputeGinger Power has a reputation beyond reputeGinger Power has a reputation beyond reputeGinger Power has a reputation beyond reputeGinger Power has a reputation beyond reputeGinger Power has a reputation beyond reputeGinger Power has a reputation beyond reputeGinger Power has a reputation beyond reputeGinger Power has a reputation beyond reputeGinger Power has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
I've seen just the opposite of that when once the issues are resolved they win a regional.

Overcoming adversity is far more inspirational than having everything handed to you.
As a team that has overcome adversity to win a Regional (frame perimeter issue our rookie year that effectively killed all the active mechanisms on our robot) I can speak to how inspirational that moment was.

But I've also seen the other side of that coin. We had major issues that ruined our whole event (and season because we only went to a single event). The devastation that we felt leaving that event was palpable. I don't think I realized that my car radio wasn't on until I was driving for at least 45 minutes. That devastation was felt by every member of team that year because we worked our butts off just to move in 3 matches the entire year. It's not a stretch to say that our failure that year could've broken our team. We were lucky that our students were resilient as all heck and we came back stronger than ever in the next year. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see similar situations destroy other teams.

Now how many teams that failed to comply with R03 do you think would fall into the first category... and how many more teams fall into the second category.

I can tell you that many more will fall into the second category. I will kick, fight, and scream and do whatever it takes to prevent a team to go through what my team did in 2015.

The change made by FIRST helps to ensure that teams don't need to experience that.

Last edited by Ginger Power : 02-14-2018 at 10:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #94   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:05 AM
s_forbes's Avatar
s_forbes s_forbes is offline
anonymous internet person
FRC #0842 (Falcon Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,422
s_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond reputes_forbes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Maybe since they amended R03, they should add a new rule that indicates the minimum level of suffering all teams should have had? To keep the playing field level.

If your team hasn't met the minimum, then you can spend time in the Suffering Room to meet the specified requirement.
Reply With Quote
  #95   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:07 AM
JesseK's Avatar
JesseK JesseK is offline
Expert Flybot Crasher
FRC #1885 (ILITE)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Reston, VA
Posts: 4,222
JesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjtheone View Post
I also, strongly believe it sets a horrible precedent and creates the expectation of late season changes the next time, a similar situation occurs... and there will be a next time.
I agree that there will be a "next time", where two independent rules create a derivative requirement that goes unnoticed by those who don't know to look for it.

Given how late in the build season it is, IMO it is a wonderful precedent to have the GDC address the derivatives in response to the reality of how teams actually interpreted the R02/R03 rule combinations.
__________________
Drive Coach, 1885 (2007-present)

1885: YouTube | CAD Library
Reply With Quote
  #96   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:08 AM
Mike Schreiber's Avatar
Mike Schreiber Mike Schreiber is offline
Registered User
FRC #0067 (The HOT Team)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Milford, Michigan
Posts: 584
Mike Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeMike Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjtheone View Post
Does it make for a happier experience for (potentially) rookie teams that misunderstood R03... undoubtedly. Does it make for a better experience... on this point I am not so sure. It did not teach them anything, about reading the spec, about the often unpleasant intersection of reality, failure and consequences in the real world, about the importance of sweating the details in engineering and I am genuinely saddened about that. Hopefully this "failure" will be pointed out during inspection, so that teams are aware of it, so that they can learn from it and hopefully not repeat it next year. I guess on that point it depends on the lens you view FRC through. Is it about creating the happiest experience for the largest number of teams or is it about trying to simulate a real life engineering challenge and teaching a group of students, who may be underrepresented in other team based activities, a number of very useful life skills.
We're here to inspire the next generation of STEM professionals. We don't need to be "teaching them a lesson". This is a high school sport - liken it to football. In the real world if you tackle someone you go to prison. Yes there's importance in following directions, not making mistakes, good engineering practices, blah blah blah. That can all be learned in school. Let's get these kids to want to learn those things, not upset about a stranger in a yellow hat telling them they wasted 6 weeks.
__________________
Mike Schreiber

Kettering University ('09-'13) University of Michigan ('14-'18?)
FLL ('01-'02), FRC Team 27 ('06-'09), Team 397 ('10), Team 3450/314 ('11), Team 67 ('14-'??)
Reply With Quote
  #97   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:13 AM
TetrisMaster's Avatar
TetrisMaster TetrisMaster is offline
Registered User
FRC #6153 (Blue Crew)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Farmington, Maine
Posts: 59
TetrisMaster will become famous soon enoughTetrisMaster will become famous soon enough
Re: Team Update 11

Coming from a team that noticed the R03 rule and then designed our drivetrain smaller from the beginning that extra .5 inches would have helped us greatly. We could have had a larger cube mechanism that it doesn't scratch our carbon fiber ramps every time we raise and lower it. We also wouldn't have had to redesign our pivot point to give our manipulator more room like I described earlier. While I agree that it will inspire teams more I wish they didn't change a rule this late into build season.
Reply With Quote
  #98   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:14 AM
Michael Corsetto's Avatar
Michael Corsetto Michael Corsetto is offline
Breathe in... Breathe out...
FRC #1678 (Citrus Circuits)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2004
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Davis, CA
Posts: 1,473
Michael Corsetto has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Corsetto has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Corsetto has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Corsetto has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Corsetto has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Corsetto has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Corsetto has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Corsetto has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Corsetto has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Corsetto has a reputation beyond reputeMichael Corsetto has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Overcoming adversity is far more inspirational than having everything handed to you.
"Everything", give me a break.

This is one thing. One small thing.

If you're a FIRST apologists, the following may trigger you. You've been warned.

I bet a lot of RI's would have passed teams that violated the old R03 anyway. It's just a reality. Many RI's probably wouldn't have enforced the old R03 properly, more on accident than anything. Even if they were aware of the proper old R03 enforcement, a lot of RI's are very reasonable people who don't see the value in a rookie team missing their qualification matches because some bolt heads are sticking outside an imaginary box.

I've seen rules bent/broken by RI's in order to help these frankly helpless FRC teams have some sort competition experience like the other 40-60 teams at the event, instead of sitting in their pit all event. The world isn't black and white.

But, thanks to FIRST, R03 just got a lot more reasonable.

-Mike
__________________
Team 1678: Citrus Circuits - Technical Mentor, Drive Coach **Like Us On Facebook!**
Reply With Quote
  #99   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:15 AM
marshall's Avatar
marshall marshall is offline
Discerning and exacting individual
FRC #0900 (The Zebracorns)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,716
marshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond reputemarshall has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Overcoming adversity is inspiring, more so than just changing the rules.
Getting rules changed is what inspires me.
__________________
"La mejor salsa del mundo es la hambre" - Miguel de Cervantes
"The future is unwritten" - Joe Strummer
"Simplify, then add lightness" - Colin Chapman
Clarke's Laws
Reply With Quote
  #100   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:19 AM
Jared Russell's Avatar
Jared Russell Jared Russell is offline
4933T15
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs), FRC #0341 (Miss Daisy)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,520
Jared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

If the greatest injustice we see in FRC this year is that a rookie team is allowed to compete when they show up with a kitbot that is 1/4" too wide, I for one will be ecstatic.
Reply With Quote
  #101   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:21 AM
mman1506 mman1506 is offline
Reversible bumpers are my trigger
AKA: Marcus Quintilian
FRC #5406 (Celt-X)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Toronto
Posts: 1,389
mman1506 has a reputation beyond reputemman1506 has a reputation beyond reputemman1506 has a reputation beyond reputemman1506 has a reputation beyond reputemman1506 has a reputation beyond reputemman1506 has a reputation beyond reputemman1506 has a reputation beyond reputemman1506 has a reputation beyond reputemman1506 has a reputation beyond reputemman1506 has a reputation beyond reputemman1506 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

The beatings will continue until inspiration improves.
__________________
2012-2015: 865 Warp7 Team Captain
2016/17: Free Agent Mentor
2018: 5406 Celt-X
Reply With Quote
  #102   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:21 AM
Jared Russell's Avatar
Jared Russell Jared Russell is offline
4933T15
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs), FRC #0341 (Miss Daisy)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,520
Jared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by s_forbes View Post
Maybe since they amended R03, they should add a new rule that indicates the minimum level of suffering all teams should have had? To keep the playing field level.

If your team hasn't met the minimum, then you can spend time in the Suffering Room to meet the specified requirement.
Is the Suffering Room another name for Minute Maid Park?
Reply With Quote
  #103   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:22 AM
pfreivald's Avatar
pfreivald pfreivald is offline
Registered User
AKA: Patrick Freivald
FRC #1551 (The Grapes of Wrath)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Naples, NY
Posts: 2,452
pfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

You know what isn't inspirational? Showing up to a competition and not being able to compete, not because your robot is a BLT or nonfunctional, but because you missed a tiny technical detail.

I think R03 was clear. 1551 didn't misunderstand it at all. I would understand if people got to competition and were forced to comply or not compete. ...but I also understand that FRC is an inspirational game, and that when you have a situation where lots of people have misunderstood part of the inspirational game, it makes perfect sense to soften the game to keep the inspiration.

(And all this "engineering specs have to be perfect" hoopla is just silly. Sometimes you can get away with breaking spec and sometimes you can't, depending entirely on the situation -- what's the spec, why is the spec the spec, and how flexible is your customer/end user on the spec? I once made a company millions and millions of dollars (and their customers very happy) by violating both their inviolate "no change to footprint" spec and their assumed-but-not-stated "$30,000 robots are not consumables, especially in pairs" spec ***in the same design***. There was some resistance at first, then people said, "hey, that's a good idea" and made huge stacks of money from which I saw very little but about which I'm still pretty proud.)
__________________
Patrick Freivald -- Mentor
Team 1551
"The Grapes of Wrath"
The Bausch Foundation and Naples High School

I write books, too!
Reply With Quote
  #104   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:25 AM
Kevin Sevcik's Avatar
Kevin Sevcik Kevin Sevcik is offline
(Insert witty comment here)
FRC #0057 (The Leopards)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 4,146
Kevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond reputeKevin Sevcik has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Kevin Sevcik Send a message via Yahoo to Kevin Sevcik
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Russell View Post
Is the Suffering Room another name for Minute Maid Park?
The Dodgers probably think so, anyways.
__________________
The difficult we do today; the impossible we do tomorrow. Miracles by appointment only.

Lone Star Regional Troubleshooter
Reply With Quote
  #105   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 10:43 AM
Billfred's Avatar
Billfred Billfred is offline
Never look back, no, never say die
AKA: Always attack with the warrior's cry...
FRC #1293 (Pandamaniacs); FTC #11444 (Garnet Squadron)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: The Shadow Realm
Posts: 9,435
Billfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond reputeBillfred has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto View Post
"Everything", give me a break.

This is one thing. One small thing.

If you're a FIRST apologists, the following may trigger you. You've been warned.

I bet a lot of RI's would have passed teams that violated the old R03 anyway. It's just a reality. Many RI's probably wouldn't have enforced the old R03 properly, more on accident than anything. Even if they were aware of the proper old R03 enforcement, a lot of RI's are very reasonable people who don't see the value in a rookie team missing their qualification matches because some bolt heads are sticking outside an imaginary box.

I've seen rules bent/broken by RI's in order to help these frankly helpless FRC teams have some sort competition experience like the other 40-60 teams at the event, instead of sitting in their pit all event. The world isn't black and white.

But, thanks to FIRST, R03 just got a lot more reasonable.

-Mike
Same, and it isn't new. I inspected a bit back in college, and I still remember a team (no names) at an event (no names) that was like 1/2" outside the box in two directions, about 15 pounds overweight, the drivetrain was shot, and probably like five other maladies lost to time.

Me being the inspector, I called it like it was: out of compliance. The LRI eventually came to the conclusion like what Michael has seen: you give us the weight, we give you the half an inch. And by golly, they worked all of Thursday and into Friday to get there, but they got there and played (to the extent one can play with a near-immobile drivetrain).

I wouldn't want the decision to come from anyone lower than the event's LRI and FTA, but I do support the unwritten mercy rule.
__________________
William "Billfred" Leverette - Gamecock/Jessica Boucher victim/Owner/Director of Bricks 4 Kidz in Columbia, SC.

2004-2006: FRC 1293 (D5 Robotics) - Student, Mentor, Coach
2007-2009: FRC 1618 (Capital Robotics) - Mentor, Coach
2009-2013: FRC 2815 (Los Pollos Locos) - Mentor, Coach - Palmetto '09, Peachtree '11, Palmetto '11, Palmetto '12
2010: FRC 1398 (Keenan Robo-Raiders) - Mentor - Palmetto '10
2014-2016: FRC 4901 (Garnet Squadron) - Co-Founder and Head Bot Coach - Orlando '14, SCRIW '16
2017: FRC 5402 (Iron Kings) - Mentor, Coach
2018-: FRC 1293 (Pandamaniacs) - Mentor

113 events (more than will fit in a ChiefDelphi signature), 15 seasons, over 74,500 miles, and still on a mission from Bob.
Rule #1: Do not die. Rule #2: Be respectful. Rule #3: Be safe. Rule #4: Follow the handbook.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:55 AM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi