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Unread 03-15-2018, 09:51 AM
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

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Originally Posted by ARaulinaitis View Post
One aspect that I haven't really seen discussed here is the fact that bag day *tries* to even out the time that teams get to work on their bots between teams who have week 1 events, and teams who have later events (week 4, 5, 6, etc.).

Ignoring any sort of funding disparities between teams, imagine two identical teams (in terms of funding, technical ability, resources, etc.). One team has a week 1 competition, the other has a week 7 competition.

If there's no bag day, then the 2nd team has a whole extra build season's-worth of time to work on their robot compared to the 1st team.
But if that robot that competed week 1 is also competing in week 7 they've had an additional 6 weeks to make modifications to their competition tested robot. You can't really compare 2 different event weeks and say it isn't fair.
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Unread 03-15-2018, 09:52 AM
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

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Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
For me it's a simple question; is the program better off with bags or without them? Is whatever benefit the students experience from a limited build window worth the numerous hassles that come from the bag? In my opinion the answer is no, and this is from someone who played back in the late 90s when crates were a thing.
One benefit of the bag and tag process is that it give the students an early look at how an engineering project functions when someone higher up tacks on a pointless requirement. It also helps introduce the idea that no amount of reasoning or complaining will ever get rid of that pointless requirement.

This is good training for the real world, where you will have to deal with those kinds of projects that make you die a little inside every time. It's very inspiring stuff!
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Unread 03-15-2018, 09:58 AM
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

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Originally Posted by s_forbes View Post
One benefit of the bag and tag process is that it give the students an early look at how an engineering project functions when someone higher up tacks on a pointless requirement. It also helps introduce the idea that no amount of reasoning or complaining will ever get rid of that pointless requirement.

This is good training for the real world, where you will have to deal with those kinds of projects that make you die a little inside every time. It's very inspiring stuff!
Just glad FIRST doesn't already simulate that by changing rules mid season...
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Unread 03-15-2018, 10:15 AM
Justin Foss Justin Foss is offline
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

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Originally Posted by KevinG View Post
Is whatever benefit the students experience from a limited build window worth the numerous hassles that come from the bag?.
See here is the problem, with the rules the way they are now, there is no real limited build window. You can continue to do whatever you want outside the bag already if you have the funds to build a second or third machine.

Please stop spreading the myth of 6 week build and limited budget.
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Unread 03-15-2018, 10:23 AM
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

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Originally Posted by ARaulinaitis View Post
A comment along the lines of "but we could just keep working on it and say we bagged it on bag day and nobody would know"

Every year, I tell them: "We don't gain anything by letting you cheat/cheating for you"
I agree, but people do it all the time any way.
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Unread 03-15-2018, 10:33 AM
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARaulinaitis View Post
One aspect that I haven't really seen discussed here is the fact that bag day *tries* to even out the time that teams get to work on their bots between teams who have week 1 events, and teams who have later events (week 4, 5, 6, etc.).

Ignoring any sort of funding disparities between teams, imagine two identical teams (in terms of funding, technical ability, resources, etc.). One team has a week 1 competition, the other has a week 7 competition.

If there's no bag day, then the 2nd team has a whole extra build season's-worth of time to work on their robot compared to the 1st team.
OMG you're right! Why has no one ever thought about that before?!?!?

Hmm... if only there were historical data that perhaps pointed to a trend for scoring averages based on week and how teams might benefit from less competition at earlier events to play to both the disadvantage and advantage given by such a situation...

https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2017
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2016
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2015
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2014
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2013
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2012
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2011
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2010
...

If only there were corollaries to market forces and early adopters versus followers...

And with that, I think I've just made the leap that the bag represents a communist system and the absence of a bag represents a free market system. Make of that what you will... Perhaps districts are representative of a socialist system given the unbag windows? The wheels are off now!!!
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Unread 03-15-2018, 10:46 AM
ARaulinaitis ARaulinaitis is offline
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

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Originally Posted by marshall View Post
OMG you're right! Why has no one ever thought about that before?!?!?

Hmm... if only there were historical data that perhaps pointed to a trend for scoring averages based on week and how teams might benefit from less competition at earlier events to play to both the disadvantage and advantage given by such a situation...

https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2017
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2016
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2015
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2014
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2013
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2012
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2011
https://www.thebluealliance.com/insights/2010
...

If only there were corollaries to market forces and early adopters versus followers...

And with that, I think I've just made the leap that the bag represents a communist system and the absence of a bag represents a free market system. Make of that what you will... Perhaps districts are representative of a socialist system given the unbag windows? The wheels are off now!!!
It seems that maybe you've misunderstood me. There is no data for what the score trends would be if there was no bag day, so there is no quantitative data to compare, only things to hypothesize about.

I know that robots improve over time, even with bag day limits imposed, but I feel that the average score disparity between early competitions and later competitions would only be amplified
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Unread 03-15-2018, 10:54 AM
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

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Originally Posted by ARaulinaitis View Post
I know that robots improve over time, even with bag day limits imposed, but I feel that the average score disparity between early competitions and later competitions would only be amplified
Why is that a bad thing? Wouldn’t that just go to show that bag rules are an impediment to improvement in robot performance across the season? And don’t we want robots to improve? Isn’t that what we’re all here for?

This gets right back to the points made earlier about inequities for teams that don’t have access to a practice robot between events.
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Unread 03-15-2018, 10:58 AM
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

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Originally Posted by AcesJames View Post
Why is that a bad thing? Wouldn’t that just go to show that bag rules are an impediment to improvement in robot performance across the season? And don’t we want robots to improve? Isn’t that what we’re all here for?

This gets right back to the points made earlier about inequities for teams that don’t have access to a practice robot between events.
I never said it was a bad thing. I'm interested in discussing it.

I feel that it would be a different game if we got rid of bag day
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Unread 03-15-2018, 11:00 AM
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

Bag day is awful because I'm always worried we'll accidentally bag the wrong robot.

We almost lose the bag every year.

Our head mentor likes to go to bed early and staying up till 11p on bag day is rough for him.

I like to go to bed early and staying at the shop till 11p on bag day is rough for me.

I'll give the bag this: The robot has a raincoat when we transport it.
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Unread 03-15-2018, 11:02 AM
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

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Originally Posted by Katie_UPS View Post

I'll give the bag this: The robot has a raincoat when we transport it.
If you seal it well enough, or else it becomes more like a fish you win from the fair.
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Unread 03-15-2018, 11:41 AM
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

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I'll give the bag this: The robot has a raincoat when we transport it.
Not gonna lie, this is my favorite part about having the bag.
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Unread 03-15-2018, 12:18 PM
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

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Originally Posted by marshall View Post
And with that, I think I've just made the leap that the bag represents a communist system and the absence of a bag represents a free market system. Make of that what you will... Perhaps districts are representative of a socialist system given the unbag windows? The wheels are off now!!!

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Unread 03-15-2018, 03:05 PM
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

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Originally Posted by ARaulinaitis View Post
One aspect that I haven't really seen discussed here is the fact that bag day *tries* to even out the time that teams get to work on their bots between teams who have week 1 events, and teams who have later events (week 4, 5, 6, etc.).

Ignoring any sort of funding disparities between teams, imagine two identical teams (in terms of funding, technical ability, resources, etc.). One team has a week 1 competition, the other has a week 7 competition.

If there's no bag day, then the 2nd team has a whole extra build season's-worth of time to work on their robot compared to the 1st team.
Yes that is worth consideration however, even with this problem a bagless system would be still be fair because all teams competing in week 1 would have the same amount of time to build a robot and all teams in week 7 would have the same amount of time to build a robot. Presumably the week 1 teams aren't competing directly against the week 7 teams. Therefore each individual competition is fair. Additional thought may need to be put into the match point system.

Right now we have teams competing in week 2 that have not touched a robot in a few weeks because their only robot is in a bag and others that have been running a practice robot for weeks and improving there skills and robot. This creates more inequality which getting rid of bag day solves.

However my main argument is that FRC is a STEM program for high school students. The benefit of teams building multiple robots as training tools for students is huge. Let's make sure all students get the same opportunity to test, vet and iterate on a design. The process of evaluation and improvement outside of competition should be open to all teams. Let's make a system that encourages teams to use the extra time to train younger or less skill team members and not to turn it into several more weeks of build so that we can coast 1/2 way through the season.
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Unread 03-15-2018, 04:15 PM
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Re: The biggest reasons Bag and Tag is terrible

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarrettF2395;1740571
Also... What is the one thing a plastic bag should protect your robot from?
Guess what, it doesn't... [URL="https://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/39995"
https://www.chiefdelphi.com/media/photos/39995[/url]
So it's glorified paper, not glorified plastic.
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