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Unread 01-13-2009, 11:55 AM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

Well, there goes my strategy of blowing out the opponent and then committing flagrant safety and sportsmanship violations to keep the margin close
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Unread 01-13-2009, 01:56 PM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

Quote:
Originally Posted by XXShadowXX View Post
2 purely defensive alliances, one team scores 2 points by a human player mistake and they get a <G14>. [SARCASM]WOW thats fair[/SARCASM]
Is it important whether or not it's "fair"? That hypothetical team obviously isn't going to be affected by a missing super cell.
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Unread 01-14-2009, 02:39 PM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to this rule a team could go 0-12 (or whatever, depending on the number of matches) and play every match with the exception of their first one down 1 or more empty cells because they happen to paired with at least one team from an alliance who doubled up their opponets in the previous match. I'm not suggesting this will happen (I'm sure the odds are against it) but it is theoretically possible.

More likely, scenario - Team A's alliance gets tripled up by Team B's alliance. Next time through Team A is on an alliance with team B and get's penalized 2 empty cells because of it.

Interesting.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 08:16 PM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tetraman View Post
I think this reminds us that to excel in this year's game, you have to think about more then just being able to score and avoid being scored on...this year, if you want a high rank, you have to allow yourself to be scored on while making sure that you make more points yourself.
You also have to build a robot that doesn't depend on using super cells because more than likely you will lose a few because of alliance pairings.
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Unread 01-18-2009, 08:36 PM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery View Post
You also have to build a robot that doesn't depend on using super cells because more than likely you will lose a few because of alliance pairings.
And this is a bad thing because ?

Learn to be adapatable. If you are missing a empty/supercell then adapt your strategy and move on. It's like playing chess without your queen (queens gambit?), most people are loath to do so because it takes them out of their comfort zone ... just like a lot of things in this years game (and in life)
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Unread 01-18-2009, 11:23 PM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

I recently posted a question on Q and A concerning how G14 will be used in eliminations. I am sure others have noticed this too but by rule, if an alliance doubled the score of the other alliance during eliminations...it would result in a loss of 3 supercells in the next match...one for each team...

A 3x result in the first match would mean a loss of 6 supercells.......

I asked for a clarificatoin on how this rule would be used in elimination rounds.

In my opinion.... the rule should not be used in elimination rounds...
If there is some other reason for the rule other than trying to make the matches closer so less experienced teams can still be in close matches... I would like to hear it... I can see this for the qual matches...

Eliminations should be just that... the better alliance wins...
What could actually result is a really good alliance beating a team badly in the first match... being handicapped in the 2nd match and losing and then when the third match is played blowing out the other team again but NOW they have to worry about the next elimination round... they will again start that match handicapped...

I just fail to see the reasoning behind the use of this rule during eliminations if we are trying to get the best alliance....
the carryover issue is interesting...

It is sort of like World Cup Soccer and the yellow card rule that states if you have two yellow cards you have to sit out the next match... even if its the final...

The only difference is that there is no real penalty or transgression going on when you get nailed by G14 You are just trying to do your best to play the game as designed...

Yellow Cards in World Cup are for pretty bad penalties that are real physical violations on the field... different I think

In my opinion at least...
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Unread 01-18-2009, 11:29 PM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

things are a little harder now...
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Unread 01-18-2009, 11:30 PM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
And this is a bad thing because ?

Learn to be adapatable. If you are missing a empty/supercell then adapt your strategy and move on. It's like playing chess without your queen (queens gambit?), most people are loath to do so because it takes them out of their comfort zone ... just like a lot of things in this years game (and in life)
Because it makes the game one dimensional and otherwise boring.
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Unread 01-19-2009, 08:18 AM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
It's like playing chess without your queen (queens gambit?), most people are loath to do so because it takes them out of their comfort zone ... just like a lot of things in this years game (and in life)
Heck yea, the Queen makes for great bait! This is by far my favorite opening as White ... too bad I get annihilated by an opponent who enjoys playing it as much as I do .

After seeing the two NFL Championship games last night, I have a slightly new opinion about G14. Teams who utilize supercells alot are more like the Ravens/Steelers game -- defensive strategy is key, and they'll just hold on until the end. Robots and feelings will get hurt along the way, and overall it's a very drawn-out game.

Yet teams who utilize their robots to score more with moonrocks and only a couple of supercells are more like the Cardinals/Eagles game -- more potential for awe-inspiring game-winning plays that get the crowd going.
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Unread 01-26-2009, 01:35 PM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
I've got this sneaking suspicion that Chris Fultz and Andy Baker designed this rule purely so they could dispose of it at IRI. Same with <G22> last year.
I think you are on to something
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Unread 01-26-2009, 04:32 PM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

In our team, this rule has been the subject of useless debate for a LONG period of time, and it boils down to having a little mercy on other players. Also, if your robot is good enough to smoke your opponent, you must have enough strategy to play without supercells.
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Unread 01-26-2009, 04:53 PM
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Talking Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

when i saw this rule i thought "well that is not fair" and then i rethought that and said "well if your team is good and scores 10 and the other team scored 0 then you have to take something away..."
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Unread 01-26-2009, 06:27 PM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrdude View Post
when i saw this rule i thought "well that is not fair" and then i rethought that and said "well if your team is good and scores 10 and the other team scored 0 then you have to take something away..."
ummm- why?
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Unread 01-26-2009, 07:24 PM
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Exclamation Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

Quote:
The assessment of the conditions under which Rule <G14> may be invoked will be determined before any penalties are assessed. This is to prevent any ALLIANCE from intentionally getting a PENALTY to impose the Rule <G14> conditions on their opponent.

Rule <G14> is assessed for every MATCH, regardless of the score.

If an ALLIANCE ends a MATCH with zero (0) points, and their opponent has any non-zero score, then the opponent has out-scored by an infinite factor. This is logically more than triple (3x) the lower score. Thus, the most strict effects off Rule <G14> will apply. Therefore, it is always to your advantage to make sure that both ALLIANCES always score at least once.

i dont think that their reasioning is very good given the fact that if you can do 0 x 3 is always 0 then you should also therefore be also able to also divide the sum you get from that by 3 to get the origonal number which with 0 is impossible. Therefore it is impossible to have a number any times higher then 0 because the outcome can't be done.

besides the whole problem that 0 x infinity is equal to 0 and therefore any number greater then 0 can't be a multiplication of 0 because the number needed to get 0 as a multiplication of the score would be undefined and therefore couldn't be done.

correct me if you think i'm wrong
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Unread 01-26-2009, 08:01 PM
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Re: <G14> - ya win some, ya lose some

I think realistically that there will never be any alliances that score zero. With the relative proximity of the human players to their targets at the beginning of autonomous AND the low acceleration from the slick wheels and surface... there should be at least 2 balls in every cart during autonomous...This is a low score of 12 points...

So realistically we are looking at something around a minimum of 6 additional balls being scored at some time and NO scoring by the poor scoring alliance before we see this G14 penalty.

It will be interesting to see what the low score will be.
Now of course, if a team does not show up... then they won't score the 2 balls so we could get a lower minimum.

I get a sneaky suspicion that members of the GDC have already played this out somewhere... looking at the relative rate of success of thrown balls and the possible scores on the field both during autonomous and teleop...and they have learned a great deal more about this than we have at this point...

Now let's all just suck it up and play the game...its just another challenge to overcome and we like challenges don't we?

If this were easy.... everyone would do it...

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