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Unread 03-08-2005, 09:14 AM
Alex Salomonsky's Avatar
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Re: VCU NASA Regional

I don't understand why people are getting angry at teams who play defense. Not every team at regionals have professional engineers to help to build a beastly arm, some arms aren't perfect that they can't hold up a tetra, so to be an assest to their alliance they need to limit the scoring of other teams. Every team needs to be prepared for rough play, protecting all key components. Some defense is a little to far (ripping a radio out of bots), but theseteams are only trying to help their alliance. My team, 769, knew our strong points. We had nice traction, good mobility, and our arm interfered better than it stacked, so we said we would play defense. We knew the key to winning was limit the other team instead of trying to win a shoot-out.
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Unread 03-08-2005, 10:44 AM
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dlavery dlavery is offline
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Re: VCU NASA Regional

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Salomonsky
I don't understand why people are getting angry at teams who play defense. Not every team at regionals have professional engineers to help to build a beastly arm, some arms aren't perfect that they can't hold up a tetra, so to be an assest to their alliance they need to limit the scoring of other teams. Every team needs to be prepared for rough play, protecting all key components. Some defense is a little to far (ripping a radio out of bots), but theseteams are only trying to help their alliance. My team, 769, knew our strong points. We had nice traction, good mobility, and our arm interfered better than it stacked, so we said we would play defense. We knew the key to winning was limit the other team instead of trying to win a shoot-out.
People aren't getting angry at teams who play defense. They are getting angry at the teams who play BattleBots in the middle of a FIRST match.

At the VCU regional, there were many teams that played a perfectly valid defensive strategy during part of all of a match. The effectiveness of the strategy varied, based on the opponents and their own capabilities, and it frequently made for an even more exciting match. Their style of play was legitimate, and consistent with both the objectives of the game and FIRST. But there were also a small set of teams that were clearly "over the line" in terms of their agressive play and the perceived intent to damage/disable their opponents. There were examples of robots repeatedly using their arms to strike opponents that were not in the process of scoring, "spearing" an opponent with a high hit from an arm that is held straight out, ramming into an opponent at full speed with a half-field running start, and similar activities. There was at least one team that committed all of these violations.

Any team may slip up and in the heat of the match make an "agressive play" violation once during the tournament. Nobody is going to jump all over you for that. In that case, you just suck up your penalty points, and move on. But the problems come when a team decides to take on a style of play that is intentionally agressive and repeatedly skirts the edges of these rules. In such cases - and we did see some at VCU - the team is flirting with disaster and deserves any penalties they may receive. If they are warned by the referees, yet still continue with agressive play, then they deserve to be disqualified.

Rule <G25> is quite specific about the intended spirit of play. Everyone should re-read it and be familiar with the expectations for reasonable and unreasonable game play.

Quote:
<G25> Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not in the spirit of FIRST Robotics Competition and are not allowed. However, Triple Play is a highly interactive contact game. Some tipping, entanglement, and damage may occur as a part of normal game play. If the tipping, entanglement, or damage occurs where it is not a part of normal game play, at the referee’s discretion, the offending team/ROBOT may be disqualified from that match. Repeated offenses could result in a team/ROBOT being disqualified from the remainder of the Regional or Championship competition.

Examples of normal game play interaction include:
• Pushing low on another ROBOT.
• Blocking or pushing on a TETRA that is in possession of an opposing ROBOT.
• Establishing ROBOT position to block access to a GOAL by an opposing ROBOT.
• Using an arm or gripper to prevent an opposing ROBOT from placing a TETRA on a GOAL.
Examples of inappropriate robot interaction include:
• Pushing high on a robot and tipping it over.
• Using an arm or gripper to repeatedly strike an opposing ROBOT that is not in the process of placing a TETRA on a GOAL.
• Placing any part of your ROBOT under an opposing ROBOT, and then lifting to flip it over.
• Using an arm and gripper to pull a ROBOT by grabbing electrical cables, hoses, etc. or disabling a ROBOT by tearing out wires or hoses.
• Grasping or attaching to a TETRA that is in the possession of an opposing ROBOT, and using it to pull over the opposing ROBOT.
• Ramming another ROBOT at high speed.
Now, having said all that, we also all need to keep things in perspective. Remember, Triple Play is just a game. Mistakes will be made. Bad calls will occur. Teams and robots will do things they shouldn't. Things will be unfair. Blood pressures will rise. But at the end of the day, IT IS STILL JUST A GAME! No one is losing their job, or their home, or their livelihood, or their family, or anything else of real consequence. The most important part of the entire process is what we each do with the experience after the competition is all over. What we take away from the build season, and the competitions, and the involvement with our teams, and how we use those experiences to shape the rest of what we do, is the most important part.

The game ends after two minutes and fifteen seconds. The build season ends after six weeks. Using the experience to help improve yourself and the rest of the world will take the rest of your life.

-dave
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Last edited by dlavery : 03-08-2005 at 01:28 PM.
  #78   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-08-2005, 11:23 AM
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Unhappy Re: VCU NASA Regional

I meant to apologize yesterday but I didnt get a chance to post due to the wiered school internet. I apologize for my comments. I typed that post at midnight in an upset state and pasted it the next day.

I agree that defense robots are good. However, I quote my dad on this, there's need to be "unneccesarily rough'' (NASCAR term). certain teams were rougher than they needed to be.

The point is I was wrong to say what I said. However, I just dont want more teams to suffer the pain that we did. Let's work out the penalty kinks and follow G25 a bit closer.

My deepest apologies for my post.
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Unread 03-08-2005, 02:19 PM
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Re: VCU NASA Regional

Ok, back on track, here is the final awards list....

Friday Awards
Imagery Award - 510 Highland Springs Technical Center
Radio Shack Leadership in Controls - 1541 Midlothian High School
Xerox Creativity Award - 447 Ebbett Education Center, Anderson HS, Highland HS (Anderson, IN)
Delphi Driving Tomorrow's Technology - 384 JR Tucker
Kleiner Perkens Kaufield Byers Entrepreneurial Award - 623 Oakton HS (Vienna, VA)
Judges Award for Innovation in Tactical Approach - 1033 Benedictine HS, St. Gertrude HS
Website Design Award - 623 Oakton HS
Autodesk Visualization Award - 435 SE Raleigh HS
Woodie Flowers Mentorship Award - Chuck Harris, Team 623 Oakton HS

Saturday Awards
General Motors Industrial Design - Team 384, JR Tucker
Daimler Chrysler Team Spirit - Team 1086, Deep Run High School
Motorola Quality Award - Team 401, Montgomery Co. Schools
Johnson & Johnson Sportsmanship Award - Team 122, New Horizons Education Center
Rookie Inspiration Award - Team 1541, Midlothian HS
Rookie All Star - Team 1610, Franklin HS
Safety Award - Team 1033, Benedictine HS, St. Gertrude HS
Judges' Award - Team 435, SE Raleigh HS
Highest Rookie Seed - Team 1610, Franklin High School
Outstanding Volunteer - Paula Gulak, Infineon Technologies
Engineering Inspiration Award - Team 388, Grundy HS
Regional Chairman's Award - Team 384, JR Tucker

Regional Winners
122 New Horizons Regional Education Center, Hampton
401 Montgomery County High Schools
435 SE Raleigh (NC) High School

Finalists
339 Commonwealth Governor's School, Fredericksburg
447 Ebbett Education Center, Anderson HS, Highland High School (Anderson, IN)
539 Trinity Episcopal School
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Unread 03-09-2005, 09:14 AM
Saton472 Saton472 is offline
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Angry I feel like I have to defend my team

Its kind of sad to see what this forum has turned in to. I will not say the actual name of this very Un GP team who have said some very untrue thing . Previously in this thread on page 4 this team accused my team (1545) of some very Un GP actions which actually made me laugh because they were blown totally out of proportion. This unnamed team accused of repeatedly ramming them and pinning them for longer then 10 seconds. They also accused us of breaking their frame and lexan. Except for the accidental breaking of their frame (The result of them using to tubing that was to small) the rest of the accusations are totally false. I was the coach for my team during the match that they are talking about and know for a fact that we did not pin them for longer then 10 seconds because i made sure that our drive backed up the required 3 feet before going in the pin again. I know that we did not repeatedly ram them because f or us to achieve a speed where can be considered ramming takes our robot about 6 feet. NO we did not break their lexan I saw their bot after the match and there was no broken lexan. Yes we did break their frame but that was an accident. WE DID NOT PURPOSEFULLY ATTEMPT TO BREAK THEIR ROBOT. Since this forum has turned in to talk about teams being Un GP lets talk about the above accusatory team. After the above match a few members from their team came over to our pit area and started cursing at us about how we broke their frame. Yes you read correctly cursing. If this is not an example of a team being Un GP somebody please tell me what is. After we found out about their broken frame we went over to their pit to offer our help and materials. We even offered them a ride over to the local Lows to get any materials that neither us nor them had. They vary rudely sad no. I don't think this team understood the part of the manuel that said that there is a possibility that you robot will get damaged.

Another example of Un GP action on the field is the blatant acts of cheating done by little flip in all the finals. The y continuously tipped robots over on purpose. The first seed alliance which my team was part of lost because of little flips cheating. The first round of the quarter finals the red alliance which my team was on along with Sparky and 1279 were up against the 8th seed alliance which had little flip on it. The first round we beet the blue alliance Red 49 Blue 00 (1-0-0) in this match there was no cheating. But in the next match Lil flip rammed Sparky so hard that they got stuck under Sparky pining them between the wall a goal and themselves thus taking them out for the rest of that match. That match ended with the score being Red 31 Blue 31 (1-0-1). The Third match the Blue alliance on with out any cheating that I could see. It ended with the score being Red 26 Blue 32 (1-1-1). In the last match between us they placed their arm over top of Sparky and then proceeded to pull out their operator control thus deactivating their bot, again taking out Sparky which along with 1279 getting tangled on the other side of the field caused us to lose the match Red 03 Blue 49 which took us out of the finals. Littil flip continued using these tactics through the rest of the finals

<G25> Strategies aimed solely at the destruction, damage, tipping over, or entanglement of ROBOTS are not in the spirit of FIRST Robotics Competition and are not allowed. However, Triple Play is a highly interactive contact game. Some tipping, entanglement, and damage may occur as a part of normal game play. If the tipping, entanglement, or damage occurs where it is not a part of normal game play, at the referee’s discretion, the offending team/ROBOT may be disqualified from that match. Repeated offenses could result in a team/ROBOT being disqualified from the remainder of the Regional or Championship competition.

Examples of normal game play interaction include:
• Pushing low on another ROBOT.
• Blocking or pushing on a TETRA that is in possession of an opposing ROBOT.
• Establishing ROBOT position to block access to a GOAL by an opposing ROBOT.
• Using an arm or gripper to prevent an opposing ROBOT from placing a TETRA on a GOAL.
Examples of inappropriate robot interaction include:
• Pushing high on a robot and tipping it over.
• Using an arm or gripper to repeatedly strike an opposing ROBOT that is not in the process of placing a TETRA on a GOAL.
• Placing any part of your ROBOT under an opposing ROBOT, and then lifting to flip it over.
• Using an arm and gripper to pull a ROBOT by grabbing electrical cables, hoses, etc. or disabling a ROBOT by tearing out wires or hoses.
• Grasping or attaching to a TETRA that is in the possession of an opposing ROBOT, and using it to pull over the opposing ROBOT.
• Ramming another ROBOT at high speed.

Last edited by Saton472 : 03-09-2005 at 09:30 AM.
  #81   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-09-2005, 09:15 AM
Saton472 Saton472 is offline
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Re: VCU NASA Regional

People have also been talking in this forum about how bad the refs were and someone even said the played favorites. I seriously doubt this. Yes I agree the reefing not the as good as it could have been but your going to have problems with refs in any compotion. In my teams last qualifying match one of the Refs mad a blatant bad call which prevented us from being able to pick an alliance. The refs call was hitting somebody in the loading zone. What had happened was our bot pushed the other alliances robot in to the loading zone in a way that they could not load a tetra. The HP for that team never left his touch pad either. And if I recall rule G12 and G 15 show that it was a bad call.
<G12>
The purpose of the LOADING ZONE is to allow ROBOTS to quickly and safely receive TETRAS without interference while HUMAN PLAYERS and/or field attendants are in close proximity, and then return to play. The LOADING ZONE is not intended to serve as a “perpetual safety zone” to prevent interaction with opponent ROBOTS for the entire match. Tethers, tape measures, long extension arms, and other devices intended to contact the LOADING ZONE to maintain the “non-interference constraint” defined in <G15> while the ROBOT drives around the remainder of the field are against the spirit of the rule and will not be permitted. Such devices must be removed before the ROBOT will be permitted to play in the match.
<G15>
A ROBOT may not interfere with an opposing ROBOT while any part of the opposing ROBOT is touching its LOADING ZONE and the ROBOT is in the process of retrieving/receiving a TETRA.
BUT WE ARE NOT COMPLAINING THESE WERE VOLUNTEER REFEREES. We contested the call and the refs said the call was finale. We left it at that.
If anybody has any problems with this post then pleas let me know.

Last edited by Saton472 : 03-09-2005 at 11:16 AM.
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Unread 03-09-2005, 01:02 PM
Dave Flowerday Dave Flowerday is offline
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Re: I feel like I have to defend my team

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saton472
II will not say the actual name of this very Un GP team who have said some very untrue thing. ... Since this forum has turned in to talk about teams being Un GP lets talk about the above accusatory team. ... If this is not an example of a team being Un GP somebody please tell me what is. ... Another example of Un GP action on the field is the blatant acts of cheating done by little flip in all the finals.
I think many would agree that acting with "Gracious Professionalism" means not running around calling other teams 'un-GP'. I really wish people would stop abbreviating Gracious Professionalism because I think the true meaning of it gets forgotten. A key part of the phrase is "professional". Being professional about something means that you should not post in public forums singling out teams, calling them names, and making accusations. It means to act in a manner that your grandmother would be proud of. It means keeping things civil and not making personal attacks against people or teams.

Someone acting in a "Graciously Professional" manner would try to discuss this topic in a rational way without making accusations and instead offer (and, more importantly perhaps, accept from others) constructive criticism.

Quote:
I was the coach for my team during the match that they are talking about...
If you are the coach for your team then you have even more responsibility to hold yourself to a higher standard. Regardless of what someone else may have said about you, you need to be the bigger person in this situation and not sink to the level of personal attacks.


While I have quoted one particular post here that irked me, there's been many people lately saying the same kinds of things. Let's all try to remember that we are working towards a common goal, and in the grand scheme of things we really are all on the same team.
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Unread 03-09-2005, 10:47 PM
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Re: VCU NASA Regional

Quote:
Its kind of sad to see what this forum has turned in to. I will not say the actual name of this very Un GP team who have said some very untrue thing . Previously in this thread on page 4 this team accused my team (1545) of some very Un GP actions which actually made me laugh because they were blown totally out of proportion.
Here we go again.

Look guys, allow me to hit the pause button.
Everybody Freeze.

Now, listen closely.

The first thing that needs to happen after everyone reads this post is to stop pointing fingers. OK? Yes, there was much that happened at VCU that was quite bashing, and it forced teams to question the intentions of the other teams, and their views on Gracious Professionalism.

Yes, in this years game, we've seen alot more impacts, shifty plays, etc. Perhaps its the fact that there's 6 bots on the field. Who knows? The point is, life goes on, and as Dave said, its only a game.
I know we took damage this year, and (accidentally) we gave some out too. I think there were lots of teams who accidentally dealt damage this year. I see the positive side to this; now you've had experience repairing your bot a bit more than usual.

Look, we are all on the same side here guys. VCU is in the past now.
Don't bicker over the past.

I makes me frown to see the number of finger-pointing posts alone in this thread, meant to discuss the events and outcomes of VCU.
How does this represent our Regional?
How does this represent your Team?

What has happened to all the neat discussions over design and plans for the future (like our hover-design we're already prototyping for '06), discussions over how we plan to change our community?

One thing I really miss most in FIRST was the team-to-team partnerships we formed back in '02.
Dave, little did ya know it, but I actually worked alongside you in '02 through Team 927, NOVA First, who partnered with Herndon during the 2002 season. I had no idea who you were then, and then in '03 I recognize you and bop myself in the head. Anyway, that partnership cultured us as rookies to understand a little more about what Gracious Professionalism meant. Here was another team, taking time away from their already hurried 6-week project to help us with ours. I miss those days.
What's happened to those team-to-team partnerships?

Our Group here at RAPTAR values those experiences, so one of the things we want to gather for next year is a system for hooking up teams in the state of VA (for starters). And I don't just mean checking off "Wish to Mentor" or "Wish to be Mentored". I mean, physically calling a contact for each team, gathering contact information and interests, and getting teams together. We want to strengthen the FIRST Community, as well as expand it.

Look guys, I honestly don't know where this thread is going, but here's the deal.
I'd like to hear a "nothing but positive" comments thread from here on out. Why should we be making negative comments discussing our regional?
Personally, our team had a great time, even past all the troubles we had. And we're sorry if we caused any damage. Yes, we occasionally "jumped the gun" trying to get to a section of the field and block, and ended up giving others a bump. We tried our best not to harm other bots, while playing strategically.

All in all guys, I think we need a new motto. I know Brandon has coined "Search before you Post!" but before that, I suggest "Think before you Post." It could save lives...
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Unread 03-10-2005, 12:20 PM
Saton472 Saton472 is offline
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Re: VCU NASA Regional

I would like to apologize to 539 for publicly ousting them even though my thoughts agree with that of other teams that were not even in the tournement.
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