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 Chief Delphi paper: 120A Main Breaker Thermal Analysis
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#1
11-22-2017, 11:15 AM
 Ryan_Todd ye of little faith FRC #0862 (Lightning Robotics) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Apr 2006 Rookie Year: 2005 Location: Plymouth, MI Posts: 122
paper: 120A Main Breaker Thermal Analysis

Thread created automatically to discuss a document in CD-Media.

120A Main Breaker Thermal Analysis by Ryan_Todd
#2
11-22-2017, 11:37 AM
 Ryan-Greenblatt A foolish programmer FRC #0900 (Zebracorns) Team Role: Programmer Join Date: Oct 2015 Rookie Year: 2015 Location: NC Posts: 57
Re: paper: 120A Main Breaker Thermal Analysis

First of all this paper was extremely helpful in building an accurate (I hope) breaker model (more on this in a sec). Thanks so much.

I think found a minor mistake in your paper, if you look at You'll see that you substituted 8 for C when it should be .08. Thus, your figure for specific heat is off by a factor of 100. 0.002716 degC / Joule is what you reported, .2716 is correct. This error cancels out because the only place you use it is in C*c*t. As C is 100x too high and c is 100x too low they cancel. So is correct. This mattered for me because I was using purely the differential equation with numerical integration and I put in the correct value for C.

Again another minor flaw. I think your math around the benefits of precooling the breaker is slightly flawed. You don't take into account the thermal mass of the surrounding housing which would also be substantially cooled effectively modifying the ambient temperature. Thus, if the housing was cooled and potentially the metal the breaker was attached too, it is possible that the benefits could be slightly higher than you state. Maybe, (based on some napkin math) instead of lasting .4 additional seconds longer it lasts 1.4 additional seconds.

Thanks for the help.
#3
12-06-2017, 01:25 PM
 Ryan_Todd ye of little faith FRC #0862 (Lightning Robotics) Team Role: Mentor Join Date: Apr 2006 Rookie Year: 2005 Location: Plymouth, MI Posts: 122
Re: paper: 120A Main Breaker Thermal Analysis

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ryan-Greenblatt ...I think found a minor mistake in your paper, if you look at You'll see that you substituted 8 for C when it should be .08. Thus, your figure for specific heat is off by a factor of 100...
Whoa, good catch!

That was left over from the original calculations, and it had an even bigger impact on the final result than you described. Because the factor-of-100 difference was in an exponent, it threw off everything else completely!

This prompted me to go back and triple-check all my sources and calculations, and I found another issue with my Fahrenheit-to-Kelvin conversion at the start of the paper as well. (d'oh!)

Long story short:
I posted an update (rev.1) with all the latest corrections.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ryan-Greenblatt ...You don't take into account the thermal mass of the surrounding housing which would also be substantially cooled effectively modifying the ambient temperature. Thus, if the housing was cooled and potentially the metal the breaker was attached too, it is possible that the benefits could be slightly higher than you state...
Very true!

My analysis is limited by what information I could glean from the internet, and it would be invaluable to (for example) bring in a proper CAD model and run some finite element (or even CFD) simulations and get some more useful data about the different paths that the heat can take in this system.

If anyone wants to take this analysis further, I'd love to see the result!
__________________
#4
12-07-2017, 12:40 AM
 philso Mentor no team Join Date: Jan 2011 Rookie Year: 2009 Location: Houston, Tx Posts: 1,589
Re: paper: 120A Main Breaker Thermal Analysis

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ryan-Greenblatt Again another minor flaw. I think your math around the benefits of precooling the breaker is slightly flawed. You don't take into account the thermal mass of the surrounding housing which would also be substantially cooled effectively modifying the ambient temperature. Thus, if the housing was cooled and potentially the metal the breaker was attached too, it is possible that the benefits could be slightly higher than you state. Maybe, (based on some napkin math) instead of lasting .4 additional seconds longer it lasts 1.4 additional seconds.
This happens with larger breakers for AC applications and it is very likely to happen with this smaller DC breaker. To confirm proper operation, we test using the enclosures for the final product with the maximum ambient temperature. Sometimes, we have to go up one rating to prevent false tripping.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Ryan_Todd My analysis is limited by what information I could glean from the internet, and it would be invaluable to (for example) bring in a proper CAD model and run some finite element (or even CFD) simulations and get some more useful data about the different paths that the heat can take in this system. If anyone wants to take this analysis further, I'd love to see the result!
Have you contacted the manufacturer, Cooper Bussmann, to get their input on how to do such calculations? They have Applications Engineers who are paid to answer questions such as these. For many electrical components, there are different thermal models for continuous operation and for transient operation. They may be able to provide you with such models. Often the models provided by the manufacturers incorporate proprietary data (fudge factors) that they have determined to be important to the accuracy of the models. This data comes from doing a lot of testing and comparing with the models and are not readily available otherwise.

You would also want to ask how much variation in the trip point one can expect to see over different production batches and if there are any other effects on the trip point such as aging. This will determine how close to a calculated trip point you can push your application.

Last edited by philso : 12-07-2017 at 12:45 AM.

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