OCCRA
Go to Post I personally think mentors should sit behind two-way mirrors and hold a kill switch for all power tools. ;) - SenorZ [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #76   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-12-2018, 11:32 PM
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 22,053
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The slippery slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
Penalty - Red Card for entire alliance even in qualifying matches, robot not inspected.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dylanstemlord View Post
A good example for this is double and triple climbs. The only way that teams could build a robot that can let another robot climb on them is size limits. If another team knew that they could add size to their robot after inspections and most likely not get caught, then double and triple climbs would stop working.
Please insert coin to play again. He's right, Andrew.

Quote:
I02. Get inspected before playing a Qualification/Playoff MATCH. A Team is only permitted to participate in a Qualification or Playoff MATCH and receive Ranking or MATCH Points respectively if their ROBOT has passed an initial, complete Inspection.

Violation: If prior to the start of the MATCH, the Team is not eligible to participate in the MATCH. If after the start of the MATCH, the entire ALLIANCE receives a RED CARD for that MATCH.
And the REASON he's right is that the team passed their initial, complete inspection, and added stuff to put them outside the size limits afterwards. On top of that, the alliance red card is only if the non-pass is found AFTER the match starts!


But surely, you say, there's got to be a way to penalize such behaviour! Well... Give I04 some teeth and we'll talk. Yes, it is a rule that robots must be in compliance with the rules in order to compete. But I04 has zero penalty attached to it (other than, I suppose, the "non-compete" part of I04). Note: I04 allows the Human Player or other team people to be participating in a match without the robot, no problem, but I02 does not allow that.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots; 2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics; 2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk



Reply With Quote
  #77   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-13-2018, 04:48 AM
pandamonium pandamonium is offline
Registered User
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 448
pandamonium has a reputation beyond reputepandamonium has a reputation beyond reputepandamonium has a reputation beyond reputepandamonium has a reputation beyond reputepandamonium has a reputation beyond reputepandamonium has a reputation beyond reputepandamonium has a reputation beyond reputepandamonium has a reputation beyond reputepandamonium has a reputation beyond reputepandamonium has a reputation beyond reputepandamonium has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The slippery slope

If it is ok to break rules and intentionally take penalties why not have an autonomous routine that intentionally caries 2 cubes at once to the scale. The penalty would be nothing compared to the potential value.

These decisions can be a slippery slope and in this grey area it is best to lean towards which is potentially more GP.

I think that Frank or the GDC will end up weighing in at some point. It is likely that this question will be asked in Q and A next year. I could see it going either way.
Reply With Quote
  #78   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-13-2018, 07:31 AM
Jon Stratis's Avatar
Jon Stratis Jon Stratis is offline
Mentor, LRI, MN RPC
FRC #2177 (The Robettes)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,129
Jon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The slippery slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by pandamonium View Post
If it is ok to break rules and intentionally take penalties why not have an autonomous routine that intentionally caries 2 cubes at once to the scale. The penalty would be nothing compared to the potential value.

These decisions can be a slippery slope and in this grey area it is best to lean towards which is potentially more GP.

I think that Frank or the GDC will end up weighing in at some point. It is likely that this question will be asked in Q and A next year. I could see it going either way.
How many times do you think you'll get away with that?

Quote:
Violation: FOUL per additional POWER CUBE. Repeated violations of this rule are likely to escalate rapidly to YELLOW or RED CARDS
Granted, I'm not a ref. But if I saw a team do that once, I would start watching out for them. Second time, a yellow card. Third time, a red. and if you can do it in auto, what would stop you from doing it in teleop as well, if you need to?
__________________
LRI: North Star 2012-2016; Lake Superior 2013-2014; MN State Tournament 2013-2014, 2016-2018; Iowa 2017; Northern Lights 2018; Great Northern 2018-2019
Division LRI: Galileo 2016; Tesla 2017; Archimedes 2018
2015: North Star Regional Volunteer of the Year
2016: Lake Superior WFFA
Reply With Quote
  #79   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-13-2018, 03:18 PM
bkilen's Avatar
bkilen bkilen is offline
Head of Scouting and Strategy
AKA: Brady Kilen
FRC #5172 (Gators)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Greenbush minnesota
Posts: 14
bkilen has a spectacular aura aboutbkilen has a spectacular aura aboutbkilen has a spectacular aura about
Re: The slippery slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by pandamonium View Post
If it is ok to break rules and intentionally take penalties why not have an autonomous routine that intentionally caries 2 cubes at once to the scale. The penalty would be nothing compared to the potential value.

These decisions can be a slippery slope and in this grey area it is best to lean towards which is potentially more GP.
Because doing that repeatedly is going to escalate to a red card as stated in the rules. If you weren't given a yellow or red card for it? Yeah sure go for it.

I guarantee if it was worth it to go for that autonomous mode teams would have done it. The GDC, however, did a good job of balancing the game by saying in the rules that repeatedly violating that rule will result in severe penalties.
Reply With Quote
  #80   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-13-2018, 03:52 PM
efoote868 efoote868 is offline
foote stepped in
AKA: E. Foote
FRC #0868
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Noblesville, IN
Posts: 1,830
efoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond reputeefoote868 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The slippery slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by pandamonium View Post
If it is ok to break rules and intentionally take penalties why not have an autonomous routine that intentionally caries 2 cubes at once to the scale. The penalty would be nothing compared to the potential value.
So, here's the rule as written:

Quote:
G22. One POWER CUBE per ROBOT. ROBOTS may not control more than one (1) POWER CUBE at a time.
Violation: FOUL per additional POWER CUBE. Repeated violations of this rule are likely to escalate rapidly to YELLOW or RED CARDS
Suppose the robot you designed had the ability to do this, to be able to control multiple cubes at once (most robots aren't like this).

Given that your robot could carry two cubes, why wouldn't teams want to do this?

You could attempt to execute this strategy on the field exactly 1 time. Any more (subsequent matches), the referees will be wise to your antics and you will get a yellow or red card.

Furthermore, even within the same match your robot interactions will likely be heavily scrutinized, since you've effectively removed the benefit of the doubt. Start the match with a G22. During autonomous you bump another cube while carrying 2? 2nd G22 violation, yellow. During Teleop you accidentally touch another cube during normal match play? 3rd G22, red.

Adding to the risks, attempting the strategy is not a guarantee (there is a lot of things that can go wrong in an autonomous routine). No chance for repeat-ability or testing.

So,
Risk is very high, reward is very low. Regardless of whether your autonomous works or not the first time, you can't use it a second time. Time is better spent on things that aren't throw-away strategies.
Reply With Quote
  #81   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-14-2018, 04:39 PM
Fields's Avatar
Fields Fields is offline
Classic
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Rookie Year: 2015
Location: South Saint Paul
Posts: 204
Fields is a splendid one to beholdFields is a splendid one to beholdFields is a splendid one to beholdFields is a splendid one to beholdFields is a splendid one to beholdFields is a splendid one to beholdFields is a splendid one to behold
Re: The slippery slope

Doing two cubes is not really as much a high risk as it is an ace in the hole.

Same as the Bengals Saints game in 2016. You CAN use this move once. Just make it count in the playoffs.

And don't stop with just the two cubes. There are a few rules you can get away with one time.

People will say it's too hard to do. Maybe if it's a last minute decision, but not if you plan on it as part of your strategy from the beginning of the season.
__________________
Wait... you built what now?

♪ 99 little bugs in the code
99 little bugs ♫
Take one down, patch it around
108 little bugs in the code ♫ ♪ ♫
Reply With Quote
  #82   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-15-2018, 02:27 AM
CJ_Elliott's Avatar
CJ_Elliott CJ_Elliott is offline
Registered User
FRC #7048 (Talon Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Eden Prairie, MN
Posts: 79
CJ_Elliott is a glorious beacon of lightCJ_Elliott is a glorious beacon of lightCJ_Elliott is a glorious beacon of lightCJ_Elliott is a glorious beacon of lightCJ_Elliott is a glorious beacon of lightCJ_Elliott is a glorious beacon of light
Re: The slippery slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fields View Post
Doing two cubes is not really as much a high risk as it is an ace in the hole.

Same as the Bengals Saints game in 2016. You CAN use this move once. Just make it count in the playoffs.

And don't stop with just the two cubes. There are a few rules you can get away with one time.

People will say it's too hard to do. Maybe if it's a last minute decision, but not if you plan on it as part of your strategy from the beginning of the season.
So basically you are saying that the GDC should come up with every one-time, game-breaking strategies and make an extra penalty for them, on top of which penalties already exist, just so that people don't do what they already don't do?
Reply With Quote
  #83   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-15-2018, 07:26 AM
GeeTwo GeeTwo is offline
Somebody Else
AKA: Gus Michel II
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Slidell, LA
Posts: 5,975
GeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond reputeGeeTwo has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The slippery slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fields View Post
the Bengals Saints game in 2016
They didn't play each other in the 2016 regular season. The Saints weren't in the playoffs for either the 2015 or 2016 season. Perhaps you mean the Ravens and Bengals?
__________________

If you can't find time to do it right, how are you going to find time to do it over?
If you don't pass it on, it never happened.
Robots are great, but inspiration is the reason we're here.
Friends don't let friends use master links.
[Quoting brennonbrimhall]: We design a new robot every year, but we can't forget that we also design a new team every year as folks come and go.
Reply With Quote
  #84   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-15-2018, 09:08 AM
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
Petitioning the UN to ban Lythgoe
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Somehow, the entire east coast...
Posts: 4,930
Andrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond reputeAndrew Schreiber has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The slippery slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fields View Post
Doing two cubes is not really as much a high risk as it is an ace in the hole.

Same as the Bengals Saints game in 2016. You CAN use this move once. Just make it count in the playoffs.

And don't stop with just the two cubes. There are a few rules you can get away with one time.

People will say it's too hard to do. Maybe if it's a last minute decision, but not if you plan on it as part of your strategy from the beginning of the season.
So is disconnecting your opponent on Einstein but I think we know how THAT turned out.
__________________




.
Reply With Quote
  #85   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 06-15-2018, 10:53 AM
FrankJ's Avatar
FrankJ FrankJ is offline
Robot Mentor
AKA: The Bearded ONe
FRC #2974 (WALT)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Marietta GA
Posts: 2,519
FrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond reputeFrankJ has a reputation beyond repute
Re: The slippery slope

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ_Elliott View Post
So basically you are saying that the GDC should come up with every one-time, game-breaking strategies and make an extra penalty for them, on top of which penalties already exist, just so that people don't do what they already don't do?
C01 is a catch all rule that already covers that. The head ref can give a red card for first time egregious behavior. Who defines "egregious" behavior. You guess it. The head referee.
__________________
If you don't know what you should hook up then you should read a data sheet
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:16 AM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi