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  #121   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-11-2012, 10:38 PM
Andrew Schreiber Andrew Schreiber is offline
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Surmak View Post
I'm sorry if you all feel this way or if I offended anyone. Yes, they both have their good sides like any other team, but I'm trying to level the playing field so to speak. The design and execution of their robots are too good to be student made. I also went to visit 2056 during last build, and was told by a 2056 parent that one of the mentors designed the robot. I asked (out of curiosity if the rumors were true) an old 2056 driver if the students had much part in robot development, and he got extremely defensive.
The following is about 1114, I'm sure 2056 is similar but I have not had a lot of interaction with them.

During my time in FIRST I have had the pleasure of competing against 1114 more times than I care to count. I have also had the opportunity to talk with their students and mentors. They have never been anything less than helpful.

One of their mentors in particular has been a particular help to me. This had nothing to do with robotics but they have always been willing to talk over problems with me and provide guidance. They've helped me through a lot.

1114 is the definition of what a FIRST team should be. For anyone to say otherwise is disgusting to me.
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Unread 03-11-2012, 10:41 PM
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Surmak View Post
The design and execution of their robots are too good to be student made.
You severely underestimate motivated students who have had excellent mentoring in the past (or present). That is all I have to say on this matter, besides:

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Unread 03-11-2012, 10:46 PM
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. fragger View Post
The second issue (which had a direct effect on our seating) was that in game 2 (linky) we got onto the coopertition bridge, invited 4307 along with us (and due to a lack of driver training, nearly flipped them in the process (sorry!)), however they did make it up there with us! I'm unsure of 3117's intensions, but before we were on the bridge, they had positioned themselves in such a way that would have made it impossible to score the 2 coopertition points for those involved; however the outcome was that 0 (zero) points were rewarded.
Hmm. I can't be sure from watching the video, but I think it looks like 3117 may have designed their robot to be able to do "balance assistance" at the one end, so that when the bridge tips down towards their robot, that end of their robot stops the bridge near the leveled position to make it easier to balance there. It looked to me that they may have actually been trying to help balance the bridge, but didn't know that they would need to back off after the bridge was actually balanced (or didn't know they were still in contact). From watching video of other matches, I'm not sure they ever succeeded at this approach, but it seemed to be a regular strategy.
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  #124   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-11-2012, 10:46 PM
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this thread, but this is too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. fragger View Post
I can understand that there is a certain human element involved in these matches, that errors do happen, and all that jazz. The second issue (which had a direct effect on our seating) was that in game 2 (linky) we got onto the coopertition bridge, invited 4307 along with us (and due to a lack of driver training, nearly flipped them in the process (sorry!)), however they did make it up there with us! I'm unsure of 3117's intensions, but before we were on the bridge, they had positioned themselves in such a way that would have made it impossible to score the 2 coopertition points for those involved; however the outcome was that 0 (zero) points were rewarded. A similar situation arose in game 53 (linky) where the result was that 1114 was awarded 1 CP (for inviting, I imagine). From what the kids saw, Karthik went 'crazy' and was yelling at the refs, and the refs were trying to calm him down.
I absolutely did not yell at any of the refs. You can ask each an everyone of them if you'd like. I did yell after that match, because I was quite disgusted by a team intentionally sabotaging a balanced cooperition bridge, and that certain members of the audience were celebrating it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. fragger View Post
It was brought to my attention by the kids, and I agreed that that was an interesting result, so I went with our driver to go discuss the matter with the refs. I was treated with a very poorly initially (ref stated that he had 'no sympathy for a team that says other teams should not be rewarded points' and once I explained the situation his tone changed to one of agreement and sympathy) and instructed to discuss with the head ref. I approached the head ref and explained the situation, and it was explained to me that he did not remember that game and that detailed data was not kept on CP; essentially I was SOL. I thanked him for his time and went back to the pits with the news.
Please read G41, quoted below for your convenience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FRC Game Manual
If the Coopertition Bridge is not Balanced, but a Robot from each Alliance is fully supported by the Coopertition Bridge, each Alliance will earn 1 Coopertition Point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. fragger View Post
I can understand that people are people, that's all good and well, and it's what makes society an interesting place to be a part of, however when there are key individuals in positions of power within the FIRST community, who are so engrained and invested in one team (as the young blonde woman's tears attested to in 1114's Chairmanship award video), just as in society, there are silly games that silly people play, but you have to be diligent keep your eyes and ears open.

As with everything in life, battles have to be chosen and political games have to be played.
I will not sit by idly as you run down my character and accuse me of affecting the results of this or any other FRC event. This is simply not the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. fragger View Post
I have such gratitude for those who made the first GTR East @ UOIT happen--it was a fantastic event, run on schedule in a very organized manner. I look forward to many years to come at this new venue and many more working the spirited and varied kids that make up Team 907. More praise needs to be given to all those involved in getting this event going!
Ironic, since the person you're slandering (me) was the Chairman of the planning committee...

I'm speechless and stunned by actions of some people this weekend, and others in this thread. This isn't the FIRST I've dedicated my last 15 years to.

//Edit: I apologize for ending a sentence with a preposition. I'm too disenchanted at the moment to fix it.
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Last edited by Karthik : 03-11-2012 at 10:55 PM.
  #125   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-11-2012, 10:53 PM
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

When I look at 1114, I push my team to be as good as them, not to demean them. There is nothing more to say, and I wish other teams had this attitude too.
  #126   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-11-2012, 10:55 PM
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

I'm all for arguing for a point, and I hate to stifle it if I feel that people can learn and be enlightened by it. And, of course, it's really not my place anymore, but Id suggest that now that Karthik has covered the situation (in a very mild manor, which I personally really admire, since I wouldn't have been able to), we either move on from this subject and go with the rest of whatever discussion can be salvaged from this thread, or just end this thread all together.

Just a suggestion.

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Unread 03-11-2012, 10:57 PM
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Thanks to team 1114 that inspired TEAM 2185 students to enter FIRST Robotics in 2007. We are all Canadians and at the World Robotics Championship, Team 1114 and 2056 represents Canada. I don't have the structure that these teams have, I admire that and the kids have a blast. At the end of the day we don't remember teams personnel but we remember numbers, 1114, 2056, 188, 610, 2198, and so on, it's time we get off our high horses and realise that we lose sleep for our students not our egos. Team 188 helped us in the beginning, I drove to 1114 presentation of the New CRIO in 2008 with my programmer. Everyone should be proud that we have 4 regionals. We will be at the GTA West in a few weeks, time to stop all this non-sense and unite for our best team to represent us at the World Championship.

So a BIG CONGRATULATIONS TO 1114, 2056 AND 1219 on your victory.

NUFF SAID

Last edited by wendells : 03-11-2012 at 11:06 PM.
  #128   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-11-2012, 10:59 PM
dr. fragger dr. fragger is offline
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

I'm sad to say that, at the regional level, all I've personally been met with when attempting to start a conversation with (or congratulating!) a Simbotics member was nothing short of a brick wall; a blank stare and quick flight. 2056 have always been very easy to chit chat with and just seem to be happier people overall.

As a machine, both teams' robots are very impressive, and I would love to sit down with whomever designed it just to pick their brains, or to sit-in on their designing sessions--this, I feel, would be extremely beneficial--to see their design and decision making process, more than anything, for inspiration (and recognition) of science and technology. Being crushed year after year is less inspiring (but it gives our David team a Goliath to look out for).

I could not be happier with Team 907's progress these last few years (moving from a standing of 62nd of 65 teams to being in the semifinals in more more than 4 years) as we hone our process and feel around in the dark for the best recipe and harmony for our students.

We're a team of ~20 student, four mentors, and one teacher--everything is built in-house at a leaky high school (have to dodge water in the shop when it rains!). I take great pride exclaiming that I'm a member of this team--often overlooked and under appreciated.


I'm sad that this may be turning into a 'let's bash 1114/2056!' thread.



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Unread 03-11-2012, 11:00 PM
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Congratulations to team 2056, 1114 and 1219! Great robots as always.
I would also congratulate team 610, 188 and 3360 for their awesome performance.

Teams have to understand that FIRST is about learning and working together. And if you really want to win then work hard, you cannot just say that other teams are really good.

And Karthik, we missed you as mc. Not that the mc at UOIT was bad but we are just used to seeing you and your exciting introductions.


-Kishan Shah
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Unread 03-11-2012, 11:02 PM
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishan View Post
And Karthik, we missed you as mc. Not that the mc at UOIT was bad but we are just used to seeing you and your exciting introductions.
It was awesome to see the new MC gain confidence throughout the weekend and get the crowds roaring. I believe Karthik was right there giving him some of the best mentorship a MC could receive.
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Unread 03-11-2012, 11:07 PM
dr. fragger dr. fragger is offline
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karthik View Post
I absolutely did not yell at any of the refs. You can ask each an everyone of them if you'd like. I did yell after that match, because I was quite disgusted by a team intentionally sabotaging a balanced cooperition bridge, and that certain members of the audience were celebrating it.
I apologize for the misinformation I was provided with.

Quote:
Please read G41, quoted below for your convenience.
Thank you, but the matter still stand of the missing point. It's in the past now regardless.

Quote:
I will not sit by idly as you run down my character and accuse me of affecting the results of this or any other FRC event. This is simply not the case.
I sorry that I have to bring this up, but you yelled at a girl on our team until she was in tears last regional. Excuse me for saying this, but it's left me personally with a somewhat tarnished image of your moral character in my mind.

Quote:
Ironic, since the person you're slandering (me) was the Chairman of the planning committee...
Credit where credit is due, what can I say--it was a wonderful event to be a part of, ran on time (and ahead of time!), and all I can do is appreciate your organizational skills and general command over the event. We all had an fantastic time and this is a great new venue for FIRST.

Quote:
I'm speechless and stunned by actions of some people this weekend, and others in this thread. This isn't the FIRST I've dedicated my last 15 years to.
Don't let it all get to you; as with everything in life, you've got to roll with the punches. We've all been there in one way or another.

Quote:
//Edit: I apologize for ending a sentence with a preposition. I'm too disenchanted at the moment to fix it.
Apology noted.


The long and short of it goes like this: yes, it's tiring that you guys clean up wherever you go, and yes, it's fantastic to see the top teams bleed, but your team inspires many more to be better and drives their want to one-up you. Take that away from this thread, more than anything, with pride.


P.

Last edited by dr. fragger : 03-11-2012 at 11:16 PM.
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Unread 03-11-2012, 11:10 PM
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Please lock this thread, it has turned into nothing but personal attacks.
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Unread 03-11-2012, 11:13 PM
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr. fragger View Post
I sorry that I have to bring this up, but you yelled at a girl on our team until she was in tears last regional. Excuse me for saying this, but it's left me personally with a somewhat tarnished image of your moral character in my mind.
Bring it up all you'd like, but don't expect me not to respond with the truth. This student repeatedly broke the rules for the usage of her media badge, including arguing with our head ref when she shouldn't have even been on the field. After multiple warnings, I told her she was no longer permitted to have the badge. No yelling took place, and I stand by my actions. If you'd like to continue this discussion in private, feel free to contact me. If you'd like to continue to bash my team, you can do that as well. If you have a tarnished image of my moral character, there's nothing I can do to fix that. I'm not here to convince you of who I am.

Rise above the hate...
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Last edited by Karthik : 03-11-2012 at 11:16 PM.
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Unread 03-11-2012, 11:13 PM
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

To the planning committee and all the teams at GTR East, kudos to you. It was a show to be sure, one full of nerves and excitement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lara Surmak View Post
Personally, I think that 2056 and 1114 are being extremely hypocritical about gracious professionalism and coopertition.

First the GP. Both teams don't design and manufacture their own robots. They have professional engineers and mentors do it for them. Whatever happened to student designed, student built?
I'm a former student from 2056. Now I mentor another team. I can honestly say that some of the coolest ideas that went on our competition robots for the past 5 years have been student designed (including the climbing device that won a Championship design award in 2010). If you're talking to the former driver and he's getting defensive, it's probably because he knows this and is expecting another lambasting for driving a "mentor-built" robot.

Quote:
Now coopertition. 2056 and 1114 always pick each other, and end up winning each time. It's not even a surprise anymore, and I doubt you feel accomplished.
I know the students on 2056 feel very accomplished with their successes (and I should know, one of them is my brother). They also feel lucky. This is because Canadian teams are getting much better than the results suggest.

For all intents and purposes, 2056 and 1114 should NOT have won that regional. The triple balance, had it worked, would have won both finals 1 and 2. A similar thing happened in 2009, with two of the same teams. Both times, some well-timed luck for 2056 kept the streak alive.

188, 610, 772, 1503, 781 have all won regionals in the past 4 years. Not against 1114 or 2056, and in some cases with them, but they have shown that they are the best of the best. These teams are consistently in the finals of Canadian regionals, and build alliances that, if they were competing elsewhere, could probably win most regionals. The fact that they are all improving at such a ridiculous rate and that 2056 and 1114 are able to keep winning really speaks to their own improvements. In the face of such amazing teams (four of which last year surpassed both 2056+1114 at the World Championships), to have a streak of 12 regional wins is absolutely something to take pride in.

TL;DR Canadian regionals are a lot more competitive than many people seem to think...
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Unread 03-11-2012, 11:18 PM
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Re: 2012-Greater Toronto Regional East

This thread was brought to my attention earlier this evening. I took the weekend off from dissecting the competition and watching the forums to spend time with the team and my friends and family before I go dark Wednesday night.

Full disclosure: this thread is populated with the words of adults and I am but a senior on my robotics team, and a wearer of many hats. I haven't been around the block as many as some of you have, but as I read, a sour taste grew in my mouth.

I don't mean to sound like a condescending parent, but I'm disappointed.

I'm disappointed that this bridge, which was identified as a point of collusion instead of coopertition, was made such a big factor by the GDC.

I'm disappointed the GDC should have had to consider that this would happen.

I'm disappointed that teams apparently took their weekends out of high school to take stereotypical high school peer pressure from the hallways of schools to the aisles of a regional.

I'm disappointed that this kind of conduct left the pits and came on to the field. You get 135 seconds to do your very best. In those 135 seconds, teams shouldn't be conspiring with one another to do worst than your best. Our sponsors believe in us enough to donate to our occasionally expensive cause, because we believe in ourselves. I told my team this year that in the past we fumbled around, slapped some metal together, and got lucky, and those days were over. I'm proud of what we all did this year, and one of our sponsors noticed enough to throw more support our way. When mentors or students throw any aspect of the game on the field, you shame every logo on your robot.

I'm disappointed that we go through the same tired charade every year of "this robot is mentor built" and "why are adults on the drive team"? There are thousands of FRC teams. If we were all the same, it would be boring and pointless. I take pride in the way our team conducts our operations, and I'd like to be more focused on how to win with what we have than how others win with what we don't.

I know I'm going to get heat for this, but I'm disappointed in how the victimized teams took to their Twitter, Facebook, and Chief Delphi accounts to throw down other teams. Yes, teams shouldn't be jerks, and yes, they were jerks. However, if we elect to preach the merits of focusing on how well your specific team is performing, and how you shouldn't worry about how other teams practice their interpretation of Gracious Professionalsim, don't go complaining about it all. I've read how 1114 has received negative feedback for positive performances before. People are people. Kids shouldn't have to deal with other teams negative attitudes, but I have to go to school with people who shouldn't be rude. I would hope mentors would take this opportunity to tell their students to rise above the BS of other's personalities instead of taking their complaints to the internet. That usually just results in hurt feelings, which were clearly laid out in this thread.

I know your opinion on that may be drastically different, but I feel like it should be mentioned.

I considered condensing this message and sending to the team in one of our emails, but frankly, this thread has really pulled my enthusiasm about FRC down a few notches. I'm going with three dozen members and coaches to my final home regional this weekend, and suddenly, I'm not looking forward to it at all. Here's to hoping it changes by Wednesday.
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