Go to Post I hate to do say it with these words but...We're all in this together. - dellagd [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-16-2018, 07:45 AM
sthump sthump is offline
Registered User
FRC #5205
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Michigan
Posts: 32
sthump is just really nicesthump is just really nicesthump is just really nicesthump is just really nice
What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

Are there rules against a human player wearing a piece of clothing that allows the robot to track during game play?
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-16-2018, 07:59 AM
AustinShalit's Avatar
AustinShalit AustinShalit is offline
Registered User
AKA: אוסטין
no team (WPILib Suite Developer)
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Los Angeles/Worcester/Israel
Posts: 232
AustinShalit has much to be proud ofAustinShalit has much to be proud ofAustinShalit has much to be proud ofAustinShalit has much to be proud ofAustinShalit has much to be proud ofAustinShalit has much to be proud ofAustinShalit has much to be proud ofAustinShalit has much to be proud ofAustinShalit has much to be proud of
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

In my personal opinion:

H05: A ROBOT shall be operated solely by the DRIVERS and/or HUMAN PLAYERS of that Team.

H07: (You are allowed to bring non-powered signaling devices)

A02: During AUTO, DRIVE TEAMS may not directly or indirectly interact with ROBOTS or OPERATOR CONSOLES unless for personal safety, OPERATOR CONSOLE safety, or pressing an E-Stop for ROBOT safety.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-16-2018, 08:04 AM
rockets's Avatar
rockets rockets is offline
Registered User
AKA: Alex Hill
FRC #5801 (CTC Inspire)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Independence, MO
Posts: 17
rockets will become famous soon enoughrockets will become famous soon enough
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

I know that last year I saw human players wearing retroreflective tape, but I'd say it's pushing it.

IMO, H07 would restrict this. "...e.g. including imagery that, to a reasonably astute observer, mimics the Vision Targets used on the FIELD." It doesn't specifically call out clothing, but I would say that would count as "equipment."
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-16-2018, 08:13 AM
GearLOading's Avatar
GearLOading GearLOading is online now
Registered User
AKA: Matthew Stone
FRC #0302 (The Dragons)
Team Role: Human Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Lake Orion
Posts: 49
GearLOading is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

It's completely legal just don't overdo it. I wore bright yellow gloves and saw other teams do similar things to actually putting a board with retroreflective tape in front of the human player station to help their robot see where the station was.
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-16-2018, 08:14 AM
cbale2000's Avatar
cbale2000 cbale2000 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Chris Bale
FRC #5712 (Gray Matter)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Saginaw, MI
Posts: 1,572
cbale2000 has a reputation beyond reputecbale2000 has a reputation beyond reputecbale2000 has a reputation beyond reputecbale2000 has a reputation beyond reputecbale2000 has a reputation beyond reputecbale2000 has a reputation beyond reputecbale2000 has a reputation beyond reputecbale2000 has a reputation beyond reputecbale2000 has a reputation beyond reputecbale2000 has a reputation beyond reputecbale2000 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinShalit View Post
In my personal opinion:

H05: A ROBOT shall be operated solely by the DRIVERS and/or HUMAN PLAYERS of that Team.

H07: (You are allowed to bring non-powered signaling devices)

A02: During AUTO, DRIVE TEAMS may not directly or indirectly interact with ROBOTS or OPERATOR CONSOLES unless for personal safety, OPERATOR CONSOLE safety, or pressing an E-Stop for ROBOT safety.
To add one point regarding H07, the caveat here is that said "non-powered signaling device" should not imitate any tracking methods used by the field (IE the vision targets or the Power Cubes).
__________________
2005-2008: FRC 703 Phoenix - Robot Driver
2009-2016: FRC 703 Phoenix - Mentor
2017-????: FRC 5712 Gray Matter - Mentor
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-16-2018, 06:39 PM
GreyingJay GreyingJay is offline
we'll fix it in the pit
FRC #2706 (Merge Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Rookie Year: 2015
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 1,257
GreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

I see the intent of that rule being to not allow you to mess around with other robots by wearing clothing that mimics the existing vision targets on the field. But, making something up that your own robot knows how to track seems to be fair game.
__________________

"If I'm going to mentor someone, I'm going to be involved in their life as a positive force." -Mechvet
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-16-2018, 06:58 PM
Mitch Stokes's Avatar
Mitch Stokes Mitch Stokes is offline
Berkeley Engineering
AKA: Mitchel Stokes
no team
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 744
Mitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

Quote:
Originally Posted by GearLOading View Post
It's completely legal just don't overdo it. I wore bright yellow gloves and saw other teams do similar things to actually putting a board with retroreflective tape in front of the human player station to help their robot see where the station was.
The rule is in there to prevent you from copying the actual layout of the vision targets in order to mess with opponent's tracking. Human players have been wearing vision targets for several years now (900 in 2014 is the earliest I remember), but I wouldn't plan on using it in auto as per the rules listed above.
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-16-2018, 06:58 PM
mswhite60's Avatar
mswhite60 mswhite60 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Matt
FRC #5675 (WiredCats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Rookie Year: 2016
Location: Mattawan, MI
Posts: 61
mswhite60 is a name known to allmswhite60 is a name known to allmswhite60 is a name known to allmswhite60 is a name known to allmswhite60 is a name known to allmswhite60 is a name known to all
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

OK per QA 30:
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	4-16-2018 8-03-42 PM.png
Views:	251
Size:	30.3 KB
ID:	23336  
__________________




Matt White
WiredCats 5675
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-17-2018, 07:21 AM
BethMo BethMo is offline
Registered User
FRC #0948 (NRG (Newport Robotics Group))
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 163
BethMo has much to be proud ofBethMo has much to be proud ofBethMo has much to be proud ofBethMo has much to be proud ofBethMo has much to be proud ofBethMo has much to be proud ofBethMo has much to be proud ofBethMo has much to be proud ofBethMo has much to be proud ofBethMo has much to be proud of
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyingJay View Post
I see the intent of that rule being to not allow you to mess around with other robots by wearing clothing that mimics the existing vision targets on the field. But, making something up that your own robot knows how to track seems to be fair game.
If I remember correctly, one of the top Championship teams used human-player-clothing-tracking to guide their robot in autonomous back in Aerial Assist. The game design team applauded their ingenuity and then modified the rules so it would be illegal in the future.

Of course, I could have any/all of the details wrong. The years all start to blend together after a while.
Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-17-2018, 08:53 AM
BobbyVanNess's Avatar
BobbyVanNess BobbyVanNess is offline
Registered User
AKA: Bobby Van Ness
FRC #0020 (The Rocketeers)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Clifton Park
Posts: 129
BobbyVanNess has much to be proud ofBobbyVanNess has much to be proud ofBobbyVanNess has much to be proud ofBobbyVanNess has much to be proud ofBobbyVanNess has much to be proud ofBobbyVanNess has much to be proud ofBobbyVanNess has much to be proud ofBobbyVanNess has much to be proud ofBobbyVanNess has much to be proud ofBobbyVanNess has much to be proud of
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

Quote:
Originally Posted by BethMo View Post
If I remember correctly, one of the top Championship teams used human-player-clothing-tracking to guide their robot in autonomous back in Aerial Assist. The game design team applauded their ingenuity and then modified the rules so it would be illegal in the future.

Of course, I could have any/all of the details wrong. The years all start to blend together after a while.
This is partially accurate. The team specifically was 254. In 2014 they released their program "Cheesy Vision" which essentially a way for drivers/human players to send a signal to the laptop without using special equipment or crossing the driver line during auto. It had a 'color' box, and then two other boxes that each looked for a color match. It then sent the 1/0 for each box based on the match, and teams could signal which goal was hot.

See:
https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...d.php?t=128639

It was well accepted by FIRST and the community for that season, mainly because of the faulty vision tracking "flip boxes" on the field that season, which just didn't work properly. Following this, FIRST decided that they want the autonomous period to be truly autonomous, and made driver station interaction illegal during auto.

Team 900 also did something interesting that year (which is no different than team 900 every year since ). They had a full field shooter/trusser and put a retro-reflective patch on their catching human player for teleop play. We thought this was the coolest thing, and even tried out a practice field match where we attached the patch to the back panel of our catching robot. Sadly it didn't work as well as we'd hoped...
__________________
2018 CNY QF, TVR F
2017 TVR SF, HVR SF, Carson Sub-Division SF
2016 TVR F, FLR W, Carver Sub-Division QF, IRI
2015 TVR F, FLR QF, Carson Sub-Division W, IRI
2014 TVR W, FLR W, Archimedes Division QF, IRI
2013 WPI Regional F, Connecticut Regional W, Archimedes Division QF, IRI, Championship and IRI Talent Show Winner

2013 - 2014 Driver: 82-43
Lead Strategy Mentor: 77-45-1
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-17-2018, 11:20 AM
Mitch Stokes's Avatar
Mitch Stokes Mitch Stokes is offline
Berkeley Engineering
AKA: Mitchel Stokes
no team
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Berkeley, CA
Posts: 744
Mitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond reputeMitch Stokes has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

Quote:
Originally Posted by BethMo View Post
If I remember correctly, one of the top Championship teams used human-player-clothing-tracking to guide their robot in autonomous back in Aerial Assist. The game design team applauded their ingenuity and then modified the rules so it would be illegal in the future.

Of course, I could have any/all of the details wrong. The years all start to blend together after a while.
Cheesy Vision used the color difference between their shirts and skin on the drivers to control the robot during auto. It wasn't the vision system itself that was made illegal, it was having the drivers legally controlling the robot in autononous that was made illegal.

Since the original question refers to human players wearing vision targets (unspecified teleop/auto) that rule doesn't apply here, and is legal as long as the vision targets don't intentionally mimic the switch targets or be used during auto.
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-17-2018, 12:37 PM
GreyingJay GreyingJay is offline
we'll fix it in the pit
FRC #2706 (Merge Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Rookie Year: 2015
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 1,257
GreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond reputeGreyingJay has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

I wasn't around during the year that teams were given an opportunity to control the robots in auto using a Kinect or some such. Did people like that aspect of the game and do you think it might come back?
__________________

"If I'm going to mentor someone, I'm going to be involved in their life as a positive force." -Mechvet
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-17-2018, 03:16 PM
NathanStro's Avatar
NathanStro NathanStro is offline
Drive/Programming/Webmaster
AKA: Nathan Strodtbeck
FRC #5980 (East Grand Rapids Robotics)
Team Role: Driver
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Rookie Year: 2016
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 163
NathanStro is just really niceNathanStro is just really niceNathanStro is just really niceNathanStro is just really niceNathanStro is just really nice
Thumbs up Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

Quote:
Originally Posted by mswhite60 View Post
OK per QA 30:
Nice catch. That's a pretty definite answer. So long as you design your tape to not look the exact same, you're good!
__________________


DRIVE TEAM Operator 2016: Worlds St. Louis | Driver 2017: Worlds St. Louis | Driver 2018: Worlds Detroit
"Its not about the robot"
"Build A Robot, Build a Team, Build a Future"
"Robots is hard"
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-17-2018, 03:21 PM
cadandcookies's Avatar
cadandcookies cadandcookies is offline
Registered User
AKA: Nick Aarestad
FRC #2220 (Blue Twilight) & FTC 9205 (The Iron Maidens)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: Minnesnowta
Posts: 1,871
cadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond reputecadandcookies has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyingJay View Post
I wasn't around during the year that teams were given an opportunity to control the robots in auto using a Kinect or some such. Did people like that aspect of the game and do you think it might come back?
I believe this demonstrates how useful it was.
__________________

Never assume the motives of others are, to them, less noble than yours are to you. - John Perry Barlow
grabcad | twitter | github
MN FTC Field Manager, FTA, CSA, Emcee
FLL Maybe NXT Year (09-10) -> FRC 2220 (11-14) -> FTC 9205(14-?)/FRC 2667 (15-16) -> FRC 2220 (18-??)
VEXU UMN (2015-17)
Volunteer since 2011
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-17-2018, 03:57 PM
Lil' Lavery Lil' Lavery is offline
Hungry Dawgs Run Faster
AKA: Sean Lavery
FRC #1712 (DAWGMA)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 7,555
Lil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond reputeLil' Lavery has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Lil' Lavery
Re: What are the rules limiting what a human player can wear onto the field

Some clarification regarding autonomous/hybrid mode controls in 2014 (and 2008/2012).

There have been several times in which FIRST has encouraged the robots to respond to outside signaling in what would be considered the "autonomous" period. This includes the renaming of the autonomous period to the "hybrid period" in 2008 and 2012, and the explicit use of a Kinect station in 2012. In 2008, it was pretty rudimentary. Teams were able to send up to 3 signals to their robot during the hybrid period. The typical way was via RC remote, to signal the randomized starting position of the trackballs on the overpass (although some teams got creative and found other signaling methods, such as colored signal lights). In 2012, there was a station with a Kinect featured field side so that one team per alliance may opt to remotely signal to their robot during the hybrid period. This was rarely used, and even more rarely used advantageously. Thus the 254 jokes at Championship that year.

In 2014, the beginning of the match was still called the "Autonomous Period," however there was a renewed push by FIRST to encourage teams to use the Kinect to interact with their robot during this period. This included allowing teams to use the Kinect or their built-in webcams on their driver station, as opposed to a specific station elsewhere on the field. While drivers had to stay behind the white lines in autonomous and wireless communications were disallowed, signaling to a motion capture device like the Kinect was expressly allowed by the rules. After frustrations with the hot goals triggering properly, 254 developed Cheesy Vision to signal to their operator console via its built-in webcam. Other teams adopted Cheesy Vision or built their own similar controls, including some taking it well beyond simple hot goal signaling. 1114 could control most of the features of their robot via signaling to their webcam, effectively enabling them to "drive" their robot during autonomous (a particularly useful feature when they donned their goalie pole at championship).

After the 2014 season, FIRST decided that it wanted autonomous to be more truly autonomous, and added new rules against what teams had done in 2014. I just want to be clear that before that, it was explicitly encouraged multiple times.
__________________
Being correct doesn't mean you don't have to explain yourself.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:09 PM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi