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Unread 04-16-2012, 12:38 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

We really shouldn't be surprised by great teams not making it to the Championships - especially this year. The 3-team serpentine alliance selection system increases the likelihood that the "3rd best" team will not win. In fact, it assures that at least one of the regional winners will not be among the best robots (if any scouts at the event have done their job). With Coopertition Points re-arranging the ranking so much this year, there is an even greater chance that the "best" teams are not ranked as highly as they might be. They get more evenly distributed and only one alliance gets the win.

The district model seems to help this situation, but most of us are not in districts yet.

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Unread 04-16-2012, 02:00 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

I'm alittle suprised to see numbers like 188 and 910 not on the CMP list, even without seeing their robots.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 02:21 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Van View Post
We really shouldn't be surprised by great teams not making it to the Championships - especially this year. The 3-team serpentine alliance selection system increases the likelihood that the "3rd best" team will not win. In fact, it assures that at least one of the regional winners will not be among the best robots (if any scouts at the event have done their job). With Coopertition Points re-arranging the ranking so much this year, there is an even greater chance that the "best" teams are not ranked as highly as they might be. They get more evenly distributed and only one alliance gets the win.

The district model seems to help this situation, but most of us are not in districts yet.

- Mr. Van
Robodox
I dont know about that considering that some of the ones people are complaining about are from the District system.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 03:30 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

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Originally Posted by animenerdjohn View Post
I dont know about that considering that some of the ones people are complaining about are from the District system.
Speaking from Michigan, my primary complaint is not that the district point system is really bad at selecting teams to qualify for the Championship, because I realise that our system is a significant improvement over the regional system in that respect. My primary complaint is that Michigan is allotted spaces based on the number of teams/regionals here 3 years ago. Michigan, based on our number of teams, should be given more slots (~4 regionals for 190 teams) than 18 (3 regionals for 132 teams). I think it would be fair to reduce the number of buy-ins to increase the number of qualifiers. This would mostly alleviate my concerns about really good Michigan teams not making the Championship.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 03:37 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

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Originally Posted by Basel A View Post
Speaking from Michigan, my primary complaint is not that the district point system is really bad at selecting teams to qualify for the Championship, because I realise that our system is a significant improvement over the regional system in that respect. My primary complaint is that Michigan is allotted spaces based on the number of teams/regionals here 3 years ago. Michigan, based on our number of teams, should be given more slots (~4 regionals for 190 teams) than 18 (3 regionals for 132 teams). I think it would be fair to reduce the number of buy-ins to increase the number of qualifiers. This would mostly alleviate my concerns about really good Michigan teams not making the Championship.
I totally agree with this. I think all of the teams that qualified from Michigan deserve it. There is no question that any of them shouldn't be going to championships. The problem is we don't have enough slots to give away.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 04:03 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

There's 33 teams from Michigan registered for Championships, which means that 13 had to buy in (since 51 and 67 get automatic bids, they don't count towards the 18). Compare that to Minnesota, which is sending 13 teams total... and they have something like 155 teams this year. Just something to think about.
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

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Originally Posted by 1986titans View Post
There's 33 teams from Michigan registered for Championships, which means that 13 had to buy in (since 51 and 67 get automatic bids, they don't count towards the 18). Compare that to Minnesota, which is sending 13 teams total... and they have something like 155 teams this year. Just something to think about.
It'd be interesting to see the breakdown of which states/regions/countries all the teams are from that are attending champs. I would've believed more Michigan teams are competing. This also makes me curious as to how many CA teams are competing... or Canadian teams.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 04:23 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

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Originally Posted by Basel A View Post
Speaking from Michigan, my primary complaint is not that the district point system is really bad at selecting teams to qualify for the Championship, because I realise that our system is a significant improvement over the regional system in that respect. My primary complaint is that Michigan is allotted spaces based on the number of teams/regionals here 3 years ago. Michigan, based on our number of teams, should be given more slots (~4 regionals for 190 teams) than 18 (3 regionals for 132 teams). I think it would be fair to reduce the number of buy-ins to increase the number of qualifiers. This would mostly alleviate my concerns about really good Michigan teams not making the Championship.
Hmm...

Maybe once districts are widespread, FIRST needs to have a "census" to ensure that all areas are properly represented.

Though on a more serious note, we all have to realize that FIRST is going to keep on growing, and the championship probably will not. We are not going to go back to the good ol' days, when everyone could get into championship by open registration. It is only going to get harder to get there. Teams that "deserve" it will not go, because there will be more teams that "deserve it" more. We are in a transition phase, where attending champioinships is moving from a right, to something that is earned. The manner in which it is earned could arguably use some improvement. But no matter how we do it, it isn't going to get any easier to get there.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 04:23 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1986titans View Post
There's 33 teams from Michigan registered for Championships, which means that 13 had to buy in (since 51 and 67 get automatic bids, they don't count towards the 18). Compare that to Minnesota, which is sending 13 teams total... and they have something like 155 teams this year. Just something to think about.
When I said "I think it would be fair to reduce the number of buy-ins to increase the number of qualifiers," I was not exempting Michigander buy-ins. Coming from a team that would never go to the Championship if we did not qualify, I would not complain if buying into the Championship were completely eliminated.

I'm not going to tell you that Minnesota teams are over- or under-represented or that Minnesota teams are better or worse, but they can buy their way to the Championship or they can go to regionals and qualify just like anyone else. You can't really specifically distribute spots in the open regional system, but if Minnesota were to have a state district system, they would (almost certainly) receive 155 teams worth of spots at the Championship, just like Michigan and MAR did when they began. However, Michigan is no longer receiving its fair share. Michigan has 190 teams, which is 8.1% (190 of 2343*) of FRC. The Championship has about 260 qualifying spots (400 minus 140 buy-ins*) this year. 8.1% of 260 is about 21. I will rescind my right to complain if FRC gives Michigan 3 more qualifying spots (unless Michigan grows significantly or the number of qualifying spots grows significantly).

The 13 Michigander buy-ins are 9.3%* of the 140 registration spots, which is probably a reflection of the resources many Michigan teams have. The 31 Michigan teams are 7.8%*, which is about right, except that I don't think we should be comparing teams that simply register. Those aren't spots allotted, which is the focus of this discussion, but rather spots open to all teams. I would focus on the fact that Michigan is only 6.9% of qualifying spots.

*Stats from here assuming the Championship is 400 teams.

tl;dr We want more spots and the ideal of equal representation agrees.
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Last edited by Basel A : 04-16-2012 at 04:25 PM.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 04:27 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_UPS View Post
It'd be interesting to see the breakdown of which states/regions/countries all the teams are from that are attending champs. I would've believed more Michigan teams are competing. This also makes me curious as to how many CA teams are competing... or Canadian teams.
If someone else doesn't beat me to it, I'll try to put together a graph tonight (no promises; finals week and all).
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Unread 04-16-2012, 04:46 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

Here are the totals (as of noon today 386 teams) by country:

1 ----- Australia
2 ----- Brazil
20 ---- Canada
5 ----- Israel
3 ----- Mexico
1 ----- Taiwan
354 --- USA

-----------------------
By Country/State/Province

# ------ % ----- Country/State
42 --- 10.9% ----- CA
33 ---- 8.5% ----- MI
29 ---- 7.5% ----- NY
20 ---- 5.2% ----- TX
17 ---- 4.4% ----- WA
16 ---- 4.1% ----- FL
14 ---- 3.6% ----- Canada-ON
13 ---- 3.4% ----- MN
12 ---- 3.1% ----- IN
11 ---- 2.8% ----- CT
11 ---- 2.8% ----- MO
11 ---- 2.8% ----- OH
10 ---- 2.6% ----- WI
9 ----- 2.3% ----- AZ
9 ----- 2.3% ----- MA
9 ----- 2.3% ----- NJ
9 ----- 2.3% ----- PA
8 ----- 2.1% ----- IL
7 ----- 1.8% ----- HI
7 ----- 1.8% ----- VA
6 ----- 1.6% ----- GA
6 ----- 1.6% ----- MD
6 ----- 1.6% ----- NC
6 ----- 1.6% ----- OR
6 ----- 1.6% ----- SC
5 ----- 1.3% ----- Canada-QC
5 ----- 1.3% ----- Israel
5 ----- 1.3% ----- NH
5 ----- 1.3% ----- OK
4 ----- 1.0% ----- ID
3 ----- 0.8% ----- AR
3 ----- 0.8% ----- CO
3 ----- 0.8% ----- KS
3 ----- 0.8% ----- ME
3 ----- 0.8% ----- Mexico
2 ----- 0.5% ----- Brazil
2 ----- 0.5% ----- LA
2 ----- 0.5% ----- RI
2 ----- 0.5% ----- UT
1 ----- 0.3% ----- AK
1 ----- 0.3% ----- Australia
1 ----- 0.3% ----- Canada-AB
1 ----- 0.3% ----- DC
1 ----- 0.3% ----- DE
1 ----- 0.3% ----- IA
1 ----- 0.3% ----- KY
1 ----- 0.3% ----- NV
1 ----- 0.3% ----- Taiwan
1 ----- 0.3% ----- TN
1 ----- 0.3% ----- WV
1 ----- 0.3% ----- WY
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ID:	12620  
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Unread 04-16-2012, 05:07 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

217 - I was shocked to not see their name on the list of Michigan teams going to the Championship. They have done so well each year and for members of my teams who have been to the Championship it will probably be weird not seeing them there.

2137 - Our team is very good friends with TORC and discovering that they weren't going was heartbreaking for many of the members on my team. They are the 5th alternate for Michigan. TORC was picked by the 3rd seed alliance in the 3rd round and actually beat our team and advanced to the semifinals. They might have been ranked higher if they had made it to the finals. They were also competing for Chairman's and recieved high praise from many people at the MSC. I expected them to get in one way or another.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 05:34 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McLeod View Post
Here are the totals (as of noon today 386 teams) by country:

1 ----- Australia
2 ----- Brazil
20 ---- Canada
5 ----- Israel
3 ----- Mexico
1 ----- Taiwan
354 --- USA
FIRST should release a translational dictionary of a few of the game terms ("Basket" "Ball" "bridge" "balance" "fender" etc) each year if were going to keep adding different countries. That way we can cooperate better.
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

Quote:
71
174
177
188
217
294
343
357*
368
829
1056
1625
1730
1771
2168
2168
2481
3138
3487
3958

*Has a ticket to but isn't attending CMP.
Schrodinger's cat seems like it really should've won RAS as well - #4 seed and an innovative new drive system in a team's rookie year really should warrant a ticket to CMP.
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Unread 04-16-2012, 06:28 PM
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Re: Best Robots Not At Championship, 2012 Edition

I haven't seen all the teams in FIRST this year, but do know there are a lot of historically successful teams not currently signed up for Championship. Statistically speaking, there are 11 of the top 30 championship teams not attending. This is based on Jim Zondag's "FIRST Championship History Results - 2011". To put it in perspective only 3 of those teams did not attend or make the elimination rounds in 2010, 7 in 2009, 6 in 2008, and 12 in 2007.

The 11 teams are:
177
217
968
71
25
1625
1503
294
3138
40 (Didn't compete in 2012)
188


This is as of 6pm on 4/16. I did not check to see if any of these qualified and have just not been put on the website. Even if there are a couple of these teams that qualified, having a championship without teams like 71, 217 & 968 is a loss for those who are attending and could have seen the amazing machines they build each year. To everyone who is attending, with these 11 teams out of the running, I expect to see some new teams moving up in Zondag's 2012 version of this list! Is it going to be your team?!

-Eric
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