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Unread 07-14-2004, 05:16 PM
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Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

As the head ref at the 2004 IRI, I initiated a yellow card / red card warning and penalty system. The idea was generated by some smart people in this thread.

Before I describe what all happened, I want to say why I am starting this thread. The point of this thread is to discuss and evaluate the yellow card / red card system, not debate the calls made by the refs. If you wish to do that, please PM or email me directly. What we were trying to do at IRI was test a new tool for the refs to use to make things clear to all competitors and fair for teams. Refs are still human, and their decisions are not perfect in everyone's eyes. This is just a possible tool for them to use.

Yellow Card
  • each team can only get 1 yellow card for the entire competition
  • a yellow card is a serious, public warning that this team ALMOST received a disqualification (DQ)
  • yellow cards are given after the match is over, after the referee team discussed the situation
  • teams are told what their yellow card is issued for
  • spectators are also told what the yellow card is for and who it is given to (briefly)
  • the head ref notes the team who received the yellow card
Red Card
  • a red card is given to a team who has been DQ'ed for the previous match
  • red cards are given after the match is over, after the referee crew discusses the situation
  • teams are told what their red card is issued for
  • spectators are told what the red card is issued for
  • referees do not have to use a yellow card before using a red card

Usage at IRI:
1 yellow card was given team A for tipping
1 yellow card was given team B for grabbing another teams drive base and not letting go (they probably did not mean to do it, but it happened)
1 yellow card was given team C for running into another team with their grabber. The nature of the action, combined with their specific grabber design led to this yellow card.
1 red card was given to team team D for an entanglement of their hook into their opponent's drive base
1 red card was given to team team E for an entanglement of their hook into their opponent's robot structure (carabiner could not let go)
1 red card was given to team C for a similar move they did to get their previous yellow card.

Referees have a difficult time judging intent. Each of these cases could be un-intentional, but still needed to be warned or penalized. These teams were all competing hard and trying to play the game the best they could. I debated about listing their team numbers here, but saw no benefit in doing that. Further down in this thread, team numbers may come out, but I am going to error on the side of anonimity at this point. Besides these calls, there were other plays where some teams ALMOST got a yellow card, but did not. I can think of a few other instances where a yellow card may have been issued, but the referee crew were less sure of the situation.

In each case of the yellow card given, teams were told why they were warned. We gave team B a yellow card after they left the field, but they were told about it before their next match started.

I have already heard some positives and negatives about this system. FIRST will benefit if we discuss this fairly. Please post your opinions and thoughts on this.

Sincerely,
Andy Baker

Last edited by Andy Baker : 07-14-2004 at 05:24 PM.
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Unread 07-14-2004, 05:21 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

I thought the Red/Yellow card usage was great, it is a great way of giving a warning that means something, and makes sure that the offender changes thier ways before serious pentaltys are issued.
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Unread 07-14-2004, 05:47 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Baker
Yellow Card
  • each team can only get 1 yellow card for the entire competition
Andy,

Does this mean if a team earns a second yellow card, they're disqualified?

If these cards are being done "soccer style", I'd like to propose a soccer style ammendment. During the World Cup and other two stage FIFA competitions, a player's yellow cards carry on throughout each phase of the competition. This means that if a player picks up a yellow in game one, and as well in game two, he is disqualified for game three. However these cards do not carry over to the second round of competition.

When it comes to the elimination rounds, an entire alliance could be disqualified for a yellow card earned by a single team in a qualification round match. That's why I propose that a team only be allowed 1 yellow card for each round of competition (qualfication and elimination).

Since the referees still have the discretion to award a red card at any point, I don't see this as a huge restriction. Any team who tries to take advantage of the fact that the cards have been reset, could easily be assessed a red card. I'd just hate to see a second offense, which only warrants a warning, be the demise of an entire alliance.
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Unread 07-14-2004, 06:35 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

It DQ them from the match, not the whole tournament. And unlike soccer, there are allowed to compete in thier next match.
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Unread 07-14-2004, 06:44 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Lauer
It DQ them from the match, not the whole tournament. And unlike soccer, there are allowed to compete in thier next match.
I understood this part of the system. The soccer parallel I was trying to draw was in cumulative nature of the penalties, not in reference to the timing of the punishments. (Clearly it would be ludicrous to dq a team from a subsequent match, unless their robot was an inherent safety risk)
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Unread 07-14-2004, 06:53 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

I really liked the whole card system. Itís good for the spectator because they can learn some of the intricacies of the rules. Also it can show other teams rules that the refs are looking closer at enforcing. Another reason it is good is that before when you got DQ'ed sometimes there wasnít a real clear explanation given to teams. This gives a channel of communication between the refs and the teams that before wasnít present.
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Unread 07-14-2004, 07:11 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

I liked the yellow/red card system, and i hope to try and implement it at Brunswick Eruption 3.0
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Unread 07-14-2004, 07:32 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

Ahh, the infamous team....er...C DQing. Receiving a yellow in the qualifyers, and a red in the elims. Yellow cards SHOULD carry over in this case to the elims. Because of in more minor or unsure of intention offenses, such as the arm situation with team C, it grants them, "a free hit" during the elims otherwise. In this specific case, there were other ways for Team C to prevent the opposing robot from haning, other than the manner they did, which would not grant a DQing, or even a yellow card.
My only problem with the yellow card, is that it forces the ref into the red card call the second time, even if the action wouldnt normally be a DQ. If it occurs a second time, and the second time it could very well be an accident, or it is far less severe of an infringment, if you dont call it it looks like favoritism or not being strong enough to DQ. Either way it can upset teams, and decrease the level of fair play. But if you do call it, your making an alliance that doesnt necisarrily deserve to lose, lose. Id go with a similar system, of warning them in private. That way, if a lesser case occurs, the only team that knows about it, is the infracting team.
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Unread 07-14-2004, 07:45 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

Karthik -

To put what I think you said into different words..
Teams should be able to recieve more than one yellow, and the red card should be used on more severe offences.

- For some instance I would agree, some I would disagree.
Disagree: If a team commits the same "foul' twice. I believe that if a team does what 469 did, go at a robot with the arm out. The first time, the were given a yellow card, and warned that if it was done again they would recieve a red.

Agree: If a team commits 2 different fouls. For instance; If a team tipped another robot in one match, and the grabbed on the ther drive base in another and didn't let go. That would warrent for a red card the second match, but I believe that there should be different catagories for yellow card cumulation.
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Unread 07-14-2004, 08:01 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery
Id go with a similar system, of warning them in private. That way, if a lesser case occurs, the only team that knows about it, is the infracting team.
It's an interesting point, but I think making other teams and the audience aware of the infraction is the most important piece of the system. By doing this, you make all the other teams aware of how the refs are viewing certain behavior and therefore you reduce the possibility of other teams making the same mistake (and that really is the point, right? We'd rather other teams learn from one team's mistake than have to punish multiple teams for the same thing). Also I feel it makes each team a little more accountable for their actions. I would expect that most teams would be a little embarassed about being called out in front of the audience for a rules violation, and that alone might be enough of a motivator for everyone to think about their actions before they become a problem instead of after.

I thought the system at IRI was done well. The refs did a great job of applying the rules fairly to all teams.
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Unread 07-14-2004, 08:07 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

I agree with you Mr. Flowerday.

I remember watching many rounds, and a certian person next to me was actaully yelling at andy to give them a yellow card. If he didn't do it, this person probably would have beat him up. (kidding of course)

By telling the audience it show other teams that they cannot get away with the behavior, and that they must follow the rules if the wish to go unpenalized.
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Unread 07-14-2004, 08:14 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

well this can all go with the discussion, with how much like soccer do you want FIRST to become, it may get to the point where parents will start brawls in the bleachers

There are 2 reasons why there are rules... atleast 2 that i can think of... rules make the game more entertaining, and they are in place, for you (or the robots) saftey and protections, as a soccer ref, i cant even count how many times kids would walk onto my field without shinguards and cleats... i always threw them off, some did some didnt, they are required for a reason, reasons i have learned.

The Yellow and Red card is great it shows proof that the refs just do more than belly checks and count balls.


This is a game folks, and rules are rules, even if you kinda sorta broke one rule in the end its still broken

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Unread 07-14-2004, 08:25 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

I think the card system is great....too many times I have seen over the years teams disqualified for something that they were warned about several times and brushed off (then complained afterwards) and sometimes I have seen teams disqualified w/o any kind of warning because of what the other teams have done similar. Now with the new card system, teams will physically see the warning and know that the referees are serious truely serious. They will have a good enough warning and have no reason to complain about a DQ coming out of nowhere. Excellent idea and Id like to see it used in the upcoming FIRST season.
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Unread 07-14-2004, 08:41 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

In my opinion, if there is any doubt into whether there was any ill intention in "pushy" situations, the referees should penalize them. The refs' jobs/volunteer duties are to keep the FIRST competition friendly and graciously professional. I agree with the previous thread that ramming is illegal. FIRST components are not designed to withstand kinetic energies put on them.
If a robot is moving along and another robot puts its arm in the way and it gets knocked over, that is unintentional (no or low penalties).
If a robot backs up 10 feet and then cries "Charge!!", that is "ramming" and should have a high penalty, depending on the damage that it does. (ie tip over = yellow card. disable (electronic damage) = instant dq). If a robot is moving along and it gets some electrical damage, that is their fault, but if it gets charged, that isn't fair.
In addition, it should be illegal for a robot to lead with a "spear". while I don't doubt that team A had no intention of shutting off (or causing severe electrical damge to) team B, it definitely could have happened. If the claw had opened, and it had landed in the electronics, even if they tried to let go, it would have undoubtedly stripped team B's electronics. I would have felt terrible for team B if their robot got disabled that way and they had to miss out on being IRI champions.

But the Refs at IRI were great in that respect. They called penalties if they had the slightest doubt, which is what should be done. Hats off to them.
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Unread 07-14-2004, 08:42 PM
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Re: Yellow card / Red card usage at 2004 IRI

I was not able to attend IRI, but I can tell that this is a badly needed system for all of FIRST competition. Excellent idea.
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