Go to Post I have never gone to a FIRST Robotics competition and not had fun. - mathking [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #46   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 10:24 PM
connor.worley's Avatar
connor.worley connor.worley is offline
Lead Mentor
FRC #5499 (The Bay Orangutans)
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Berkeley
Posts: 703
connor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Bottiglieri View Post
We used copper wire last year.

But yeah, that is another head scratcher.
Wait a sec, the 4awg in this photo isn't this stuff? I'm pretty sure I can make out "Copper Clad" printed on the insulation.

(Your team also loaned the same wire to us at Chezy )
__________________
Team 5499 (2015-present)
Team 973 (2016-2017)
Team 254 (2014-2015)

Team 1538 (2011-2014)

日本語副専攻です!話しましょう!

Last edited by connor.worley : 02-13-2018 at 10:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #47   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 10:29 PM
Richard Wallace's Avatar
Richard Wallace Richard Wallace is offline
I live for the details.
FRC #3620 (Average Joes)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Southwestern Michigan
Posts: 4,159
Richard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond reputeRichard Wallace has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Frisk View Post
They do test this stuff, but I don't think they test it using an overexcited 15 year old repeatedly slamming into everything on the field at 20 feet per second.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndySam View Post
That's my point, they should test it the way it's going to be used.
What an idea! FIRST engineering should build a few drive trains, invite local 15 year olds to HQ, feed them Skittles and Mountain Dew, then let them drive six at a time on a wide-open field, in a game called Robo Survivor. The drive trains should be fitted with encoders and accelerometers so dynamics can be reported directly to the FMS.

I would buy a ticket to watch.
__________________
Richard Wallace

Mentor since 2011 for FRC 3620 Average Joes (St. Joseph, Michigan)
Mentor 2002-10 for FRC 931 Perpetual Chaos (St. Louis, Missouri)
since 2003

I believe in intuition and inspiration. Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited, whereas imagination embraces the entire world, stimulating progress, giving birth to evolution. It is, strictly speaking, a real factor in scientific research.
(Cosmic Religion : With Other Opinions and Aphorisms (1931) by Albert Einstein, p. 97)
Reply With Quote
  #48   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 10:32 PM
Fusion_Clint's Avatar
Fusion_Clint Fusion_Clint is online now
Registered User
AKA: Clint Brawley
FRC #0364 (Fusion)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Rookie Year: 2013
Location: Gulfport MS
Posts: 332
Fusion_Clint has a reputation beyond reputeFusion_Clint has a reputation beyond reputeFusion_Clint has a reputation beyond reputeFusion_Clint has a reputation beyond reputeFusion_Clint has a reputation beyond reputeFusion_Clint has a reputation beyond reputeFusion_Clint has a reputation beyond reputeFusion_Clint has a reputation beyond reputeFusion_Clint has a reputation beyond reputeFusion_Clint has a reputation beyond reputeFusion_Clint has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

I believe this is a good change.

The rookie teams are already trying to learn FRC similar to drinking water from a fire hose. Since this is an easy mistake to make with the kitbot, I see the value in this change.

To the teams that had it right or made it right with the kitbot, awesome job! The devil is always in the details.

All teams please do a self inspection; also ensure that you complete your Cost Accounting Worksheet (CAW) and Robot Lockup Forms and bring them with you to your event.

All three forms can be found here in section 8 of the game manual. https://www.firstinspires.org/resour...nual-qa-system
__________________
Clint Brawley
USAF 1992-2013
Fusion 364, 2014 Season to present
Reply With Quote
  #49   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 10:33 PM
nick4130's Avatar
nick4130 nick4130 is offline
4130 Team Captain
AKA: Nick
FRC #4130 (The Blue Devils)
Team Role: Human Player
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Richmond, Michigan
Posts: 70
nick4130 is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Team Update 11

Although I agree with the R03 rule change, I think FIRST messed up from the beginning. 99.9% of rookies/newer FRC teams get the kit bot chassis, so why the heck canít FIRST just make the kit bot chassis, as assembled correctly, legal every year? We read the rules this year and do a custom chassis, but FIRST is really grinding my gears (no pun intended) on this one. Just my opinion. Being a rookie is difficult as it is, the least you could do is cut some slack.
__________________
2016 FIM Kettering 2 Quarterfinalist
Judges Award
2016 FIM Marysville Quarterfinalist
Engineering Inspiration Award
Current Team Captain


Reply With Quote
  #50   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 11:02 PM
piersklein's Avatar
piersklein piersklein is offline
Registered User
FRC #0320 (Pyongyang Academy of Denim)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 232
piersklein has much to be proud ofpiersklein has much to be proud ofpiersklein has much to be proud ofpiersklein has much to be proud ofpiersklein has much to be proud ofpiersklein has much to be proud ofpiersklein has much to be proud ofpiersklein has much to be proud ofpiersklein has much to be proud of
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjtheone View Post
Close does not count. Either you are compliant with the rule, or you are not. Engineering is all about the specifications, about pass/fail, right/wrong. It is not about close enough, almost correct. The expectation is that if you are not compliant, you fail inspection, and you have to address the issue prior to being allowed to compete. Enforcing the rules, via robot inspection, has absolutely nothing to do with "screwing over teams".
I understand the point you are trying to make. However, there are three things I think are important to keep in mind.

1. The point of inspection isn't to teach the lesson of complying with rules. It is to introduce safe building practices to students early and make sure the competition is safe for everyone.

2. There is nothing to suggest that any team was or is attempting to circumvent the size restrictions to gain a competitive advantage.

3. This isn't the hill to die on. It's late in the season and we are all grumpy. The fix FIRST came out with is entirely reasonable. We should let it go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IndySam View Post
Is FIRST going to reimburse us for the money we spent on the official bump?

Don't they test this stuff before they have teams invest hard earned money for it?

Can't say I'm very happy.
This isn't the hill to die on. It's late in the season and we are all grumpy. The fix FIRST came out with is entirely reasonable. We should let it go.
__________________
10 events/8 elims/2 wins

I used to know what I was doing. But then I went on CD and they sorted me out.
Reply With Quote
  #51   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 11:06 PM
ns3517's Avatar
ns3517 ns3517 is offline
Registered User
FRC #0316 (Lunatecs)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: south jersey
Posts: 110
ns3517 has a spectacular aura aboutns3517 has a spectacular aura about
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
+1/2" X L x H extra area to use ... maybe?
Not having to adjust your frame after others already have?
Not having to engineer around the difference in area?

This is not Steamworks. This game does not heavily rely on storage, and teams are not battling for who can store the most fuel. Yes I am disappointed the rules weren't more clear and they had to change them towards the end of build season, however I don't think it gives an unfair advantage.
Reply With Quote
  #52   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 11:10 PM
Hitchhiker 42's Avatar
Hitchhiker 42 Hitchhiker 42 is online now
Roboter
AKA: Mark Lavrentyev
FRC #4557 (FullMetal Falcons)
Team Role: Programmer
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Rookie Year: 2015
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 845
Hitchhiker 42 has a reputation beyond reputeHitchhiker 42 has a reputation beyond reputeHitchhiker 42 has a reputation beyond reputeHitchhiker 42 has a reputation beyond reputeHitchhiker 42 has a reputation beyond reputeHitchhiker 42 has a reputation beyond reputeHitchhiker 42 has a reputation beyond reputeHitchhiker 42 has a reputation beyond reputeHitchhiker 42 has a reputation beyond reputeHitchhiker 42 has a reputation beyond reputeHitchhiker 42 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

I'll be honest - initially, I thought that they should leave the rule as is. However, I've come to realize that in this game, 1/2" isn't huge. I'd rather play a team that is 1/2" larger than us (heck 3-4" since our robot is tiny) than not see the team play at all (or only after heavy modification).
__________________
Don't forget your towel!

Reply With Quote
  #53   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 11:13 PM
PayneTrain's Avatar
PayneTrain PayneTrain is online now
It'S pArT of tHe ChaLleNgE
AKA: "very active discussion within our community"
FRC #0422 (Circuit Breakers)
Team Role: Mascot
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Rookie Year: 2009
Location: The Safety Glasses Table
Posts: 2,597
PayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond reputePayneTrain has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick4130 View Post
Although I agree with the R03 rule change, I think FIRST messed up from the beginning. 99.9% of rookies/newer FRC teams get the kit bot chassis, so why the heck can’t FIRST just make the kit bot chassis, as assembled correctly, legal every year? We read the rules this year and do a custom chassis, but FIRST is really grinding my gears (no pun intended) on this one. Just my opinion. Being a rookie is difficult as it is, the least you could do is cut some slack.
Ding ding ding! You are absolutely, 1000% correct.

Not to take a dump on anyone, but something like this and the cable cover shuffle happen when there are multiple branches in a decision tree, and the wrong one was chosen intentionally or by default through inaction every single time. Its bad for FIRST to have their top supplier provide something that even if configured in a way suggested by the supplier, can easily break the rules in a way that was no way intentional and borderline misleading. It's unfortunate the LRIs did not make a uniform case to nip this problem in the bud, be it because FIRST didn't agree, everyone missed it when the rules were reviewed, or the cabal of "ItS pArT oF tHe ChAlLeNgE" shouters suppressed it. It sucks that after this problem was pointed out by the community, it was doubled down on by Q&A and in the forums until it got a breaking point where the director finally relented.

Still, here we are. Does this rule change affect a lot of teams? Yes. Does this rule change provide a net benefit to team experience? Hell yeah it does. If you disagree with that statement or think that maximizing quality of team experience should not the primary goal for FRC leadership, you need help.
__________________
It's part of the challenge

Last edited by PayneTrain : 02-13-2018 at 11:16 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #54   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 11:26 PM
gorrilla's Avatar
gorrilla gorrilla is online now
1557 alumni, 4639 mentor
AKA: adam spears
FRC #4639 (RoboSpartans)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Houston
Posts: 1,412
gorrilla has a reputation beyond reputegorrilla has a reputation beyond reputegorrilla has a reputation beyond reputegorrilla has a reputation beyond reputegorrilla has a reputation beyond reputegorrilla has a reputation beyond reputegorrilla has a reputation beyond reputegorrilla has a reputation beyond reputegorrilla has a reputation beyond reputegorrilla has a reputation beyond reputegorrilla has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjtheone View Post
So we get to pick and choose the rules we adhere to? If you are 0.1 pound over 120 you will fail R06. Is this any more or less inspiring? First is still going to be "screwing" over teams that are some minor fraction of an inch over 55" tall.

Close does not count. Either you are compliant with the rule, or you are not. Engineering is all about the specifications, about pass/fail, right/wrong. It is not about close enough, almost correct. The expectation is that if you are not compliant, you fail inspection, and you have to address the issue prior to being allowed to compete.

Sorry I remain absolutely unconvinced that this change was a good idea and I believe it creates a horrible precedent for the next misunderstood rule.
Engineering isn't always about everything being perfectly within a certain size, I make industrial casework and millwork, our products can shrink or swell and go up or down in weight just depending on the weather. A countertop can shrink or grow almost a half inch if the humidity is bad. The customer still gets it installed.

We often have to field cut metal trim pieces when the tsa booths are installed because it will either be too short or too long once it gets to the site.
__________________
Adam Spears



Team 1557 2007-2011 student-Lake County FL

Current Team 4639 mentor- Houston TX
Reply With Quote
  #55   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 11:33 PM
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is online now
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 21,430
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by nick4130 View Post
Although I agree with the R03 rule change, I think FIRST messed up from the beginning. 99.9% of rookies/newer FRC teams get the kit bot chassis, so why the heck canít FIRST just make the kit bot chassis, as assembled correctly, legal every year?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PayneTrain View Post
Its bad for FIRST to have their top supplier provide something that even if configured in a way suggested by the supplier, can easily break the rules in a way that was no way intentional and borderline misleading. It's unfortunate the LRIs did not make a uniform case to nip this problem in the bud, be it because FIRST didn't agree, everyone missed it when the rules were reviewed, or the cabal of "ItS pArT oF tHe ChAlLeNgE" shouters suppressed it. It sucks that after this problem was pointed out by the community, it was doubled down on by Q&A and in the forums until it got a breaking point where the director finally relented.
Or maybe, just maybe, it's that FIRST chooses a COTS solution as their KOP drivetrain every year, and doesn't bother to tell the manufacturer about stuff that could get the solution redesigned slightly. This happens.




What I don't like about the update isn't necessarily the update itself. It's the timing, to some degree--should have been done earlier. But exactly what, I'll leave until I can think straight. You can start with this and fill in some of the rest, I think.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots; 2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics; 2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk


Reply With Quote
  #56   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 11:41 PM
chapman1's Avatar
chapman1 chapman1 is online now
Registered User
FRC #3688 (Suttons Bay Norsemen Robotics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Suttons Bay MI
Posts: 137
chapman1 has a reputation beyond reputechapman1 has a reputation beyond reputechapman1 has a reputation beyond reputechapman1 has a reputation beyond reputechapman1 has a reputation beyond reputechapman1 has a reputation beyond reputechapman1 has a reputation beyond reputechapman1 has a reputation beyond reputechapman1 has a reputation beyond reputechapman1 has a reputation beyond reputechapman1 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

I agree with Fusion_Clint.

If FIRST ever got to the point where a team could be disqualified for failing to machine all bolt heads down to 1/4" owing to litigation-caliber language nuance in the rules, then I would be done. That would be ignoring the forest for the trees.

It would also be a distinct advantage to teams that have lawyers on staff who could nuance the minutiae of every word of a long contract, and a HORRIBLE punishment to rookie teams. I don't really think FIRST would do that.

So I suspect that this R03 Rule stuff was one of two things:

1) an oversight.
2) a deliberate joke played on teams who should have caught the joke - but didn't - and on teams who have lawyers (over-serious engineers, etc.) on staff and took the joke too seriously. If option 2 is the case, then I suspect FIRST had every intention of of rescinding the culprit verbiage, once the lesson was taught.
__________________
Older, but still somewhat coherent.
Reply With Quote
  #57   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-13-2018, 11:57 PM
M.O'Reilly M.O'Reilly is offline
Registered User
AKA: Mike O.
FRC #4637 (BambieBotz)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Posts: 106
M.O'Reilly has a reputation beyond reputeM.O'Reilly has a reputation beyond reputeM.O'Reilly has a reputation beyond reputeM.O'Reilly has a reputation beyond reputeM.O'Reilly has a reputation beyond reputeM.O'Reilly has a reputation beyond reputeM.O'Reilly has a reputation beyond reputeM.O'Reilly has a reputation beyond reputeM.O'Reilly has a reputation beyond reputeM.O'Reilly has a reputation beyond reputeM.O'Reilly has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

I have been happy with the GDC/FIRST in recent years for the very reason that frustrates people. They are showing agility in a continuously growing field, where solutions from as recent as 5 years ago are no longer relevant.

They are designing some $@#$@#$@#$@# good games, and demonstrating courage and candor while trying to fix the shortcomings.

Sometimes, oversights just aren't caught until late in the game. If we all caught oversights early, all of our robots would be successful like the Cheesypoofs!

Really pleased to see so much positive response here... I was beginning to worry in the PSA thread. Bravo.
Reply With Quote
  #58   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 12:48 AM
Jared Russell's Avatar
Jared Russell Jared Russell is offline
Powered Up
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs), FRC #0341 (Miss Daisy)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,370
Jared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by connor.worley View Post
Wait a sec, the 4awg in this photo isn't this stuff? I'm pretty sure I can make out "Copper Clad" printed on the insulation.

(Your team also loaned the same wire to us at Chezy )
http://www.knukonceptz.com/mobile-au...erground-wire/

We've used both this and copper-clad aluminum in the past.

Last edited by Jared Russell : 02-14-2018 at 12:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #59   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 01:15 AM
connor.worley's Avatar
connor.worley connor.worley is offline
Lead Mentor
FRC #5499 (The Bay Orangutans)
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Berkeley
Posts: 703
connor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond reputeconnor.worley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared Russell View Post
http://www.knukonceptz.com/mobile-au...erground-wire/

We've used both this and copper-clad aluminum in the past.
Thanks for posting. I think I know what we're ordering tomorrow.
__________________
Team 5499 (2015-present)
Team 973 (2016-2017)
Team 254 (2014-2015)

Team 1538 (2011-2014)

日本語副専攻です!話しましょう!
Reply With Quote
  #60   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-14-2018, 01:27 AM
pmangels17's Avatar
pmangels17 pmangels17 is offline
Mechanical Marauders - Alumnus
AKA: Paul Mangels
FRC #0271 (Mechanical Marauders)
Team Role: Mechanical
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Bay Shore, NY
Posts: 448
pmangels17 has a reputation beyond reputepmangels17 has a reputation beyond reputepmangels17 has a reputation beyond reputepmangels17 has a reputation beyond reputepmangels17 has a reputation beyond reputepmangels17 has a reputation beyond reputepmangels17 has a reputation beyond reputepmangels17 has a reputation beyond reputepmangels17 has a reputation beyond reputepmangels17 has a reputation beyond reputepmangels17 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Team Update 11

Regarding the R03 change, I am definitely of the position that it is a good decision, even if it renders null some design changes for some teams that could've spent time doing something else.

And, consider this. Which version of R03 is easier for referees to enforce on the field? It's one thing to check that an appendage is inside the frame perimeter, which in general is not that hard to do. But, if the robot passed inspection with "minor protrusions," is it practical to expect that on-field checks of R03 will be consistent across multiple events, or even across a single event?

It seems to me that the new R03 makes it easier for teams to get out there and get playing, and allows the people who are enforcing the rules (inspectors and referees at various times) to focus on things other than bolt and rivet heads.
__________________
Senior at the University of Notre Dame, Mechanical Engineering

Got questions (about Notre Dame, robots, college, etc), don't hesitate to ask.

**Bang Boom Pop!** "Was that the robot?" "I don't know, do it again"
**BANG BOOM POP** "Oh, now it's on fire."

Last edited by pmangels17 : 02-14-2018 at 01:27 AM. Reason: grammar
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:20 PM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi