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Unread 11-01-2013, 08:55 AM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

I want to start by saying thank you to everyone on the team that worked so hard on this project. It is not perfect but is a great start so something that is badly needed.
I keep reading about limited slots at CMP and teams veteran team not making it to District Championships.
I feel that teams within a district should be allowed to compete at a regional, however if they are competing at that regional prior to playing their qualification events within their district, they are gaining not only additional out of bag time, but practice and experience that the other teams in the district are not getting. If they win that regional, they are also taking away a slot from CMP that a team from within that region. What a district team does outside their district should have no impact either positive or negative on the other teams in their district.
If you disagree with that, you will likely disagree with my next statement as well.
CMP Limited slots. CMP is something that every student in FIRST should have the chance to experience. It should also be a competition of the best of the best. The low number of qualification matches at CMP is a big concern for many of us. There should be more teams at CMP not less. There are a few ways to do that. I think Einstein should start out with 8 alliances. To do that more divisions are required, that means more teams. To make room for more teams, separating the FTC and Lego programs from CMP would make more room for teams. In Michigan FTC has been moved to a middle school program. Based on what I have witnessed this is something that also needs to be followed by other districts. This is a different subject but that program also needs to grow, and is very limited in growth partly due to being so limited in numbers at CMP. My final note is teams attending and competing at CMP based on their past performance. It is great to have these inspirational teams at CMP but I do not feel anyone should have an automatic slot to compete based on their past performance.
FIRST is growing at a rapid pace and that is great, but with growth at that rate comes growing pains. If FIRST continues to grow at this rate, and I for one hope it does, we are going to be living with growing pains for a long time to come.
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Unread 11-01-2013, 08:56 AM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

In the future, I wonder what would happen if a regional-winning district team opened up a wildcard slot at the regional and also didn't eat a district slot (was still skipped over in the CMP advancement points list). One downside is that the number of teams qualifying for CMP is slightly less predictable, but relative to the other unpredictable factors with regional advancement, this might be manageable until everywhere has district-points style advancement.

I'm sure there are other downsides. Potentially big ones--this is a quarter-baked idea at this point (closer to <1/6yr-baked, considering the committee's work). Still, it'd be nice [EDIT*: NOT] to villanize the only method of cross-area pollination for teams "stuck" in an--overall incredibly, incredibly awesome--system that impedes some valuable experiences (travel & working with diverse teams).


Thank you to the committee. I think it's hard to overstate the enormity of this achievement, even as smaller changes continue to be reviewed. (Personally, I'd also like to see rookie points considered in this category, but I'm happy to trust the committee that this is at least among the best first attempts we could have hoped for.) I have a few other questions, but I'm sure they'll be answered with the characteristic good grace.

*ahem...oops.
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Unread 11-01-2013, 09:55 AM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

This may be the one and only time where the satire Facebook page "Tem 254: Teh Chezy Pofs" gets credit for the best take on the rookie bonus.

"i help out my rookiez, gotta raise dat new talent. play FRC like bruce lee, not an mma fighter. #honor"

As crazy as that sounds, the heart of the matter is our rookies are our future, and we should be encouraging them to do their best. The bonus helps make those dreams happen.

That being said....rookies, you've gotta work. 10 points isn't going to get you to the District CMP on your own. You've got to be smart, play hard, show some GP, earn a trophy, be the best FIRST team you can be with the tools you have. This isn't a golden ticket - it's a golden opportunity. It's up to you to earn it.
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Unread 11-01-2013, 11:30 AM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

FYI, Frank has posted an update on the FRC Blog that he will be addressing comments and questions regarding the new standard district point structure next week. (Thread for update: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh....php?p=1299677)
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Unread 11-01-2013, 11:44 AM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian Curtis View Post
I would love to hear Jim Zondag (or any of the Michigan district folks) chime in on the merit of the Rookie and 2nd year team points.
Great dialog:
I worked on this committee for most of the summer with all of the members listed in Frank's Blog. This was a very interesting, challenging, and fulfilling experience. We had representation from many regions of country, and numerous very experienced FRC mentors and leaders. This was much like our original FiM development in 2008 only bigger: We started with a diverse group of leaders with differing backgrounds and priorities, we combined everyone's input into an action plan, and then we did a lot of analytics on every aspect of all the various proposals using many years of District and League wide FRC back history as a reference. The result is the system as it was presented in Frank's Blog. It is a derivation of the system we have been using in FiM/MAR for the past 5 years. IMHO and by my analyses, the changes are improvements to the original design and will improve the overall FRC competition experience for everyone.

To comment on a couple of points:
Rookie Bonus: I like this item and it is a great addition to the overall district promotion system. As big as FRC has become, we still have a long way to go to reach the penetration levels of mainstream sports. Growth needs to remain a priority and sustainability remains a big concern. League studies show that FRC teams are most likely to fold in their early years of existence. Providing young teams with improved opportunity for success is important to the long term health of FRC. Many young teams will tell you that the hardest year in the FRC actually the 2nd year. There are many advantages for 1st year teams but in year 2, you are just like everyone else. We collectively decided to soften this transition by spreading this initial opportunity over 2 years.

Operationally, the 10 point rookie bonus equates to about a 15% competitive opportunity for rookies in their first year for a 200+ team population like we have here in MI. Other new district regions will be similar in size. This bonus is significant, but not huge. Rookies still have to perform well in order to capitalize on this opportunity. Last year, no Rookies made it to the Michigan Championship. With the modifications, 3 would have made it (5%). All 3 of these team were also Rookie All Stars.
All 3 made Elims at both districts were very close to making the cut to MSC even without these adjustments. Historically, FRC had a fixed rookie promotional opportunity to CMP of about 17% for RAS. The district opportunity we are providing is less than that, in that it still requires young teams to perform at above average competitive levels in order to advance.

Compromises: While there were are few compromises made in this process, most of them were pretty minor. The main thing I saw through my experience on this committee was a growth of understanding by the various team members as to how a District system works. Initially, there were large difference in opinion amongst some of the team members but this gradually changed as we all worked together on this project. The big differences are that focus must shift somewhat when you move from a system in which most teams play only one event to a system in which all teams play at least two events. Accomplishments which are notable in the original context are not necessarily so in the new context due to the much larger number of instances. This can be hard to see from the outside. With Districts We are now playing a season, so individual event accomplishments are less important than . It took some time for everyone to come to a full understanding of this, and in the end, I did not feel that any of the committee members felt that we had made significant compromises for the sake of consensus. I think everyone on the committee is quite happy with the result and have a better understanding of what it expect as they transition to District play.

To echo Frank's point, this is an Iteration of the District promotional design: it is not the first and will not likely be be the last. As our sport grows and evolves, the dedicated people who work to make the FRC what it is will continue to adapt to the new challenges which will come with future growth and success.
I have been glad to have been part of this so far.
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Unread 11-01-2013, 03:33 PM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

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Originally Posted by MechEng83 View Post
This will likely be an unpopular opinion, but I'm ok with a district slot being taken when a team wins at a regional. I'm in Indiana, sitting on the outside of districts, but we're possibly headed for district play in 2015. Here's my reasoning:

The number of bids a district gets to the championship is supposed to be proportional to the number of teams it has within the district. District teams are allowed to play outside their district in a regional. Non-district teams are not permitted to play in a district event. Essentially, the opportunity exists for a district team to "steal" a non-district slot and in the past there was no reciprocal arrangement. This method ensures a more even distribution of teams. Note: teams from districts are still be eligible for the Championship through the waitlist, just like non-district teams. It is practially impossible to create a completely "fair" system, but I feel like this system is more fair than the previous policy.
+1 vote for this sentiment
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Unread 11-01-2013, 03:48 PM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

Thank you to everyone that worked on this monumental task
Great first cut at it.

I have a question though...

It is apparent that the point categories are for each event.
This means that if a team wins the "???" judged team award at a district event it will receive 5 points.

When determining the total score for that team let's assume it goes to District Championship and wins the award again.

For the purposes of determining rank in the district that would yield a total of
5 points for the district and 3 X 5 points for a total of 20 points.

I think this is fairly straight forward.

The document does not detail how the rookie/2nd year team points are handled in this way. I can only assume that a rookie team will recieve 10 points for each district event for a total of 20 points and then if they qualify for District championships they will recieve 3 X 10 for a total of 50 points towards their District ranking for CMP.

I don't think this was intended... but I see nothing that says that is not what is to be done.

Do rookies get a 10 point bonus once? or for each district event that they attend...

Do they get the triple 10 point bonus if they are at district CMP?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Has it been clarified somewhere that I don't know about?

thanks
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Unread 11-01-2013, 03:53 PM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Steele View Post
Do rookies get a 10 point bonus once? or for each district event that they attend...

Do they get the triple 10 point bonus if they are at district CMP?

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Has it been clarified somewhere that I don't know about?

thanks
Good question Bob. I interpreted the point structure completely differently upon first read in that rookies got 10 points once and that was it. However, re-reading it it slightly less clear now.

Maybe someone can clarify?

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Unread 11-01-2013, 04:37 PM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

EWCPCast will be discussing this topic on Wednesday, 11/6 at 9PM EST with special guests Jim Zondag and Jon Jack. Be sure to tune in!

Thread link here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh....php?p=1299712
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Unread 11-01-2013, 04:47 PM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

I'm prefacing my thought on this by saying that I'm glad we have dedicated men and women making the districts what they are, but I just have a singular complaint. My team is fairly average here in New England. The past two seasons we would've been on the bubble of making it into DCMP if New England was a district yet. My worry is that if we have a similar season this upcoming year, a rookie team that would normally be 9 points below us all of a sudden has our spot at DCMP because of the 10 point bonus. Other than that, no complaints from me.
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Unread 11-01-2013, 05:12 PM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Money 1058 View Post
I'm prefacing my thought on this by saying that I'm glad we have dedicated men and women making the districts what they are, but I just have a singular complaint. My team is fairly average here in New England. The past two seasons we would've been on the bubble of making it into DCMP if New England was a district yet. My worry is that if we have a similar season this upcoming year, a rookie team that would normally be 9 points below us all of a sudden has our spot at DCMP because of the 10 point bonus. Other than that, no complaints from me.
The goods news is, there are things you can do about this. If you plan the work and work the plan, you will very likely make it to the district championship.
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Unread 11-01-2013, 05:14 PM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

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Originally Posted by IKE View Post
The goods news is, there are things you can do about this. If you plan the work and work the plan, you will very likely make it to the district championship.
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Unread 11-01-2013, 05:17 PM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

Quote:
Originally Posted by IKE View Post
The goods news is, there are things you can do about this. If you plan the work and work the plan, you will very likely make it to the district championship.
Sorry if I was sound negative in that, not the intent believe me that's our plan.
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Unread 11-01-2013, 05:36 PM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

I think one of the biggest plus factors for the District system is the District Championship.

For many teams, the World Championship is a dream... perhaps not because of the winning that a team has to do against terrific odds to get there but more because of the cost. A little team from Washington has to first win and then come up with thousands of dollars to register...get hotels...and travel....

Having a DISTRICT CHAMPIONSHIP is a much more attainable goal... travel and costs are much less... (you still have a $4000 entrance fee) but it is attainable and something that every team can work for with a reasonable chance of success. If 60 teams or so out of 150 can make it to the District event that is a less than 1 in 3 chance to go.

What are the chances of that team going to Worlds?

400 chances in 3000 teams or so... roughly
1 chance in 7+

longer odds
Being a District Championship team is a big deal.
A team gets to compete twice before the District CMP

This is pretty nice...

All or nothing is the way of Regionals...
One regional... 5 spots (for non-rookies)
A 60 team regional gives you a less than 1 in 10 chance to go...

Just sayin'
We will work out the details....
Districts is a great deal for teams....
It promotes hope... hard work can make things happen... have a bad district and you have another chance....

It really is a better system... for everyone...
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Unread 11-01-2013, 08:32 PM
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Re: FRC Blogged-Standard District Point Structure

Nothing I can say that hasn't been said, but I think they came up with a good system. We were all 'scared' of districts until we experienced them...now we think they're great. I see a similar path for these new rules.

Best of all, in 2015 we can go to other districts!
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