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Unread 11-17-2018, 01:21 AM
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paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

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Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing by juchong
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Unread 11-17-2018, 01:22 AM
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

Update 1.3:
Captured data on a brand new CIM. Numbers adjusted from previous version are highlighted in red.
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Unread 11-17-2018, 02:34 AM
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

Update 1.4:
Added compensation to account for the angle of the wrench during testing.
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Unread 11-17-2018, 07:13 AM
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

What time did you stay up until, or are you still there??
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

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Today 01:34 AM
This is what passion looks like. Thanks for sharing the data!!!!!
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Unread 11-17-2018, 07:54 AM
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

Great work, good to see our results concur!
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

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This is what passion looks like. Thanks for sharing the data!!!!!
That's 2:34am where Juan lives!
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

The motor controllers used are a Talon SR, Victor SP and Spark MAX, correct?
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Unread 11-19-2018, 10:04 AM
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

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Originally Posted by Why Not? View Post
The motor controllers used are a Talon SR, Victor SP and Spark MAX, correct?
From talking with Juan, yes.

Personally, I'm curious as to why the CIM's readings vary so much. I could see it going up from the older-design Talon SR to the more modern Victor SP, but the drop back on the SPARK MAX is curious. And doubly so when the Mini CIM sees none of this variation.
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

Please don't take this as me criticizing the value of your efforts, because I very much appreciate what you've done to provide information in the absence of manufacturer data on the motor, so thank you for that.

My concern is the inconsistency in the difference between the torque data for the Cim and Mini Cim on the Max. If you compare the results to the motor vendor's data one motor is ~11% greater than the value stated in Vex motor testing data and the other is ~11% less than the torque stated in Vex motor testing data.

I know this test is imperfect and has some downsides, I'm just wondering if you have any insight into that particular inconsistency? Any one else with insight, feel free to chime in.
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Unread 11-19-2018, 10:36 AM
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billfred View Post
From talking with Juan, yes.

Personally, I'm curious as to why the CIM's readings vary so much. I could see it going up from the older-design Talon SR to the more modern Victor SP, but the drop back on the SPARK MAX is curious. And doubly so when the Mini CIM sees none of this variation.

I think its safe to assume that the SR is current limiting to around ~80A, and that the MAX is limiting to around ~110A. It would explain the differences in the data. Especially given that the stated max "burst" current of the MAX is 100A according to rev.

Last edited by marcfred737 : 11-19-2018 at 10:40 AM.
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Unread 11-19-2018, 10:47 AM
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

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Originally Posted by marcfred737 View Post
I think its safe to assume that the SR is current limiting to around ~80A, and that the MAX is limiting to around ~110A. It would explain the differences in the data. Especially given that the stated max "burst" current of the MAX is 100A according to rev.
One is +11% the other is -11%. If they were both +11% the higher current would certainly explain that, but they're skewed in opposite directions.
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Unread 11-19-2018, 10:59 AM
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

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Originally Posted by BoilerMentor View Post
One is +11% the other is -11%. If they were both +11% the higher current would certainly explain that, but they're skewed in opposite directions.
Sorry for the confusion, my original comment was a response to billfred's observation.

Looking at your observation though, I believe that the current limiting can also explain the data. In the angle compensated testing, the cim is +6% and the minicim is +12% for the SP (which is assumed to be the controller that is not current limited) For both the SR and MAX, the stall torque should be under the vex data for the motors.
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

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Originally Posted by marcfred737 View Post
Sorry for the confusion, my original comment was a response to billfred's observation.

Looking at your observation though, I believe that the current limiting can also explain the data. In the angle compensated testing, the cim is +6% and the minicim is +12% for the SP (which is assumed to be the controller that is not current limited) For both the SR and MAX, the stall torque should be under the vex data for the motors.
Yes, you're absolutely right. I've got it now. The stall current of the Mini Cim is below the current limit of the MAX, so it's actually reaching the limit of the motor, whereas the CIM is actually higher than the 100A limit of the MAX is cutting off the top of that motor curve. This actually makes the Neo that much more impressive. Brushless efficiency I suppose.
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Unread 11-19-2018, 04:39 PM
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Re: paper: Preliminary REV MAX and NEO Stall Torque Testing

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Originally Posted by Jaci View Post
Great work, good to see our results concur!
Absolutely!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McLeod View Post
That's 2:34am where Juan lives!
It was a rather late Friday, but I'm glad I got the data out there!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Why Not? View Post
The motor controllers used are a Talon SR, Victor SP and Spark MAX, correct?
Correct! I suspect the SR has an upper limit since the MOSFETs used in the motor controller are likely a generation or two behind what's in the MAX or SRX.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billfred View Post
Personally, I'm curious as to why the CIM's readings vary so much. I could see it going up from the older-design Talon SR to the more modern Victor SP, but the drop back on the SPARK MAX is curious. And doubly so when the Mini CIM sees none of this variation.
I suspect that the Victor SP doesn't have any upper current limiting, so given enough time pushing 100+ Amps through the controller it'll eventually die. The Talon SR is probably limited due to the hardware and the MAX is limiting current to 100A in software.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoilerMentor View Post
Please don't take this as me criticizing the value of your efforts, because I very much appreciate what you've done to provide information in the absence of manufacturer data on the motor, so thank you for that.

My concern is the inconsistency in the difference between the torque data for the Cim and Mini Cim on the Max. If you compare the results to the motor vendor's data one motor is ~11% greater than the value stated in Vex motor testing data and the other is ~11% less than the torque stated in Vex motor testing data.

I know this test is imperfect and has some downsides, I'm just wondering if you have any insight into that particular inconsistency? Any one else with insight, feel free to chime in.
No worries, I understand that the measurements seem a bit far from everyone's expectations. I too thought that my data seemed far away from what VEX has distributed, but after thinking about it my test data seems to be more in-line with real-world testing. I suspect that VEX recorded data using a bench supply using ideal conditions where I performed all testing using more real-world conditions. I can't fix the voltage at exactly 12V since I used a battery as my power source, so some of the variation could easily be attributed to this one difference. We're also assuming that the CIM and MiniCIM are both manufactured to tight tolerances. Who knows what guard bands these Chinese manufactures have in place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoilerMentor View Post
Yes, you're absolutely right. I've got it now. The stall current of the Mini Cim is below the current limit of the MAX, so it's actually reaching the limit of the motor, whereas the CIM is actually higher than the 100A limit of the MAX is cutting off the top of that motor curve. This actually makes the Neo that much more impressive. Brushless efficiency I suppose.
Exactly! I'm working to secure a calibrated force gauge to use for additional testing. This is 100% anecdotal, but at about 85~90% stall I observed an additional ~25% torque from the NEO before reaching full stall (which is the number I stated in the document).
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Last edited by juchong : 11-19-2018 at 04:42 PM.
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