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Unread 10-08-2002, 10:23 PM
Ken Leung's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
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Post As an objective reader, here is my sincere opinions...

As a general reader of this site, and someone who’s interested in discussion in general more so than specific issues… here is my sincere opinions.

Two obliviously things have been happening: A lot of different view points coming up, and tons of arguments going on. Seems like we are too busy arguing that some of us concentrate too much into the arguments itself, and others of us got overwhelmed by all the strong comments flying back and forth… And finally, the debate is stopped by a method none of us wish to see.

Look. We all understand there is no simple right or wrong to those complicated issues, that is why these forum exist… Rather than simple using phrases such as “yes I wholeheartedly agree” or “no you are not correct”, we use this place to express what we think, and share the thoughts with others (which is also know as the 2 cents, although I always think that thoughts deserver much more credit then 2 cents). And a lot of us have different things in mind. Just because mine is different than yours doesn’t mean one of us is right and the other is wrong, it take a lot more factors to determine that… Sometimes both sides are right because they are talking about their own situation, and neither one can accurately apply to the other… Right and wrong aren’t most important anyway…


This forum is a really great tool to get people connected to the rest of FIRST communities, as well as a great place to learn from other people and share a little part of yourself. Big arguments will only get in the way of that.

Argument vs. Discussion

In a discussion, the people express their point of view, and others join in and express theirs as well. Afterward, the people understand (or at least try to) WHY others have a different view, they look through the facts in front of them, learn from other’s thought, and determine if they want to change their own view… And finally form a few conclusions about their discussion, and leave happily.

In an argument, however, I see people express their opinions, then some others join in and talk about why those opinions are wrong, and express what’s right. The two group then pick flaws out of the other’s statement, and form the statement “ours are right because yours are wrong” instead of saying “here is why I think differently, but I also understand your way”. Through out the arguments people miss some of the side points the others are trying to make because they are too focused into arguing. Then, even though a lot of people didn’t mean it, their messages come out forcing opinions into others. Eventually both side got so strong headed that none of them would ever change their view and accept the other view.

...


Pick out incorrect facts? Fine. Talk about what you think? Fine… But please do not concentrate on finding errors in others’ statement. It’s becoming too much of a burden if we are constantly checking on what’s right or wrong, and argue about them. Talk about the different points… Tell people how it’s different in your perspective… Be considerate about other’s trouble… And don’t be so negative from time to time. This place is used to inspire others to think from all different views.

I am really disappointed at how some of the discussion turns into argument, and that someone’s voice are shut out just because they are uncommon… It is completely unfair to people with unique voices when we flood the forum with our common ones, and tell them that they should not argue with us just because theirs are rare… No one should change what he or she thinks just because they are the minority.

Posters around here came from all over the country. That is why this place is so valuable, because we get to learn from other places. What happens in one place doesn’t mean it will happen in another. You can certainly talk about how things work in your place and suggest it to others, but should not assume it’s the same in others.

Different speculation and different way of thinking is totally ok. Sometimes they sound extreme and negative, but it only mean how much the poster care about that issues. The fact that someone is that angry shows how important the issue is to them.

I really hope that we can just get along with each other… Maybe all it take is a little more listening and less fault picking… and a little toleration and consideration to others about their trouble and frustration… Maybe this will work out if we keep an open mind and accept the different voices, no matter how quiet they sound…

Well, maybe I am just being too naïve and ideal…
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Unread 10-08-2002, 10:26 PM
Brandon Martus's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
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Thank you Ken.
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Unread 10-08-2002, 10:26 PM
Ken Leung's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
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Smile let's take a break

I like Brandon's idea... Let's all take a break from all these threads, and think about why we are here in the first place posting all these things in the forum.

At the end, all we hope to get from this forum is to:

Learn from other people
Express yourself
Get to know more people
Share your experience
Make some really good friends
share your knownlege

Right?
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Unread 10-08-2002, 10:35 PM
A. Snodgrass A. Snodgrass is offline
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I completely agree with Ken on this one. Ive noticed the same things about how things have been developing in CD... its one of the reasons I havent posted all that much or come in here as much. I see a lot of people having trouble dealing with their emotions and instead of proving their points in a respectful and tactful way they insult or belittle another persons point of view or call them ignorant. I would like everybody to remember that EVERYBODY has freedom of speech, and to their own opinion in their own mind. You go out on a really big limb when you post your opinion for somebody else to read. Having somebody treat you like you are an idiot makes it less likely that you will post again, even if you DONT agree with their opinion.

just my two cents....up to everybody else if they read them.
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Unread 10-08-2002, 10:35 PM
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What about a thread created every (week?) for the soul purpose of formal debate. A topic would be given in the initial post and everyone would get the chance to present their arguments and a rebuttal to another's argument. It would be moderated and judged much like a formal competition, thus reducing the argument-turned-emotional-spewage that normally results from any "discussion." Of course, there would neither be a prize, nor a winner.. I dunno how well that would work, but its an idea to get the ball rolling.
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Unread 10-08-2002, 10:51 PM
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I'm at fault for at least a little of what Ken's talking about.

If/When the thread is reopened, I'll try to act civil...

Sorry...

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Unread 10-08-2002, 11:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by FotoPlasma
If/When the thread is reopened, I'll try to act civil...

Sorry...

Me too
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Unread 10-08-2002, 11:49 PM
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M: Oh look, this isn't an argument!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
M: It's just contradiction!
O: No it isn't!
M: It IS!
O: It is NOT!
M: You just contradicted me!
O: No I didn't!
M: You DID!
O: No no no!
M: You did just then!
O: Nonsense!
M: Oh, this is futile!!
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is!
M: I came here for a good argument!
O: AH, no you didn't, you came here for an argument!
M: An argument isn't just contradiction.
O: Well! it CAN be!
M: No it can't!
M: An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
O: No it isn't!
M: Yes it is! 'tisn't just contradiction.
O: Look, if I *argue* with you, I must take up a contrary position!
M: Yes but it isn't just saying 'no it isn't'.
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it isn't!
O: Yes it is!
M: No it ISN'T! Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says.
O: It is NOT!
M: It is!
O: Not at all!
M: It is!
(Bing!!)
O: Thank you, that's it.
M: (stunned) What?
O: That's it. Time's up. Good morning.
M: But I was just getting interested!
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Unread 10-08-2002, 11:49 PM
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It all comes down to one simple fact.

January is painfully far off, and we're all at a loss for engaging discussion topics in the absence of a new competitive robotics challenge from FIRST.

Just my 'opinion' of course. =P

-Joel
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Unread 10-09-2002, 12:06 AM
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/me <3 Dave

And Thank You Ken. I knew I respected you for some reason.


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Unread 10-09-2002, 07:28 AM
Katie Reynolds Katie Reynolds is offline
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Ken said it best.

Thanks Ken, we love you!

- Katie
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Unread 10-09-2002, 09:23 AM
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Thank You Ken, well said
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Unread 10-09-2002, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
January is painfully far off, and we're all at a loss for engaging discussion topics in the absence of a new competitive robotics challenge from FIRST.
Yeah I know sigh. Is there anyway we can add a section for technical disscussion for robotics other than first or will discussions relevant to robotics should be posted in the appropriate discussion area.
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Last edited by Adam Y. : 10-09-2002 at 01:43 PM.
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Unread 10-09-2002, 02:12 PM
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Stop quoting entire long postings and addressing every single minute detail of a person's opinion and posting entire novels! That's what I have to say about the whole argument thang.
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Unread 10-09-2002, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by MBiddy
Stop quoting entire long postings and addressing every single minute detail of a person's opin...
You don't have to read anyone's novels, you know. Otherwise, well, look for yourself ^

Ken, thank you for posting this, because I hope it'll serve to remind everyone of good etiquette when it comes to discussion. I realize that, by now, most people who read CD regularly can't stand me, but I don't have the time or patience to start trouble for no reason. I feel strongly about what I choose to reply to, I have faith that my reply offers something new to the discussion, and I take the time to, at the best of my ability, be intelligent, considerate, and comprehensive.

I could only hope that others do the same, but it's become quite clear to me that they do not.

So, in that vein, forgive me for being the slightest bit unappreciative of having my work, time, and effort degradized and labeled as 'drivel'. I work very hard at what I do here, and I don't think I should be faulted for having that reflect in my writing.

I'm sure there are others that feel the same. Truthfully, I appreciate the discussion here a great deal, and it helps me to gain insight into other robotics people in arenas outside of FIRST. FIRST does not a person make, and these rare glimpses into the lives, opinions, and motivations of other people are enlightening.

Keep it civil, I think. But, please, keep it up.
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