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Unread 01-26-2006, 12:50 PM
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Green target has to "warm up"?

Has anyone else noticed that the green target has to "warm up" for about 2 minutes before reaching full brightness?

In its cold power-on state, the light is so dim the camera color ranges have to be opened up wide. Only problem is, when I do that it shows a newfound affinity for fluorescent lights, incandescent lights, etc.

Any ideas? Does anyone know if FIRST will allow the lights to warm up before a match?

Thanks
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Unread 01-26-2006, 12:57 PM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

This warm up period is common with cold cathodes and compact fluorescents, and full size fluorescents if its really cold.
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Unread 01-26-2006, 01:45 PM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

What defines a "cold-start" though? I would think that after FIRST turns them on in the morning and they run a little, they would be warm enough, with the possible exception of lunch, to be at full brightness during the match. Hmm, maybe they want to turn them both on at the end of the match during reset and next match setup to keep them warm.
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Unread 01-26-2006, 02:00 PM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeTheEng
What defines a "cold-start" though? I would think that after FIRST turns them on in the morning and they run a little, they would be warm enough, with the possible exception of lunch, to be at full brightness during the match. Hmm, maybe they want to turn them both on at the end of the match during reset and next match setup to keep them warm.
Your alliance's center goal target light turns off when you are on defense.
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Unread 01-26-2006, 02:03 PM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

I haven't noticed this at all.. I can go plug our camera and light in, after they have both sat off for a day, and the camera will find it no problem..

But they are going to be on for at least one match before anything starts, so it won't be a big problem (I figure they run at least one match all the way through without robots, to make sure everything works)
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Unread 01-26-2006, 02:23 PM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

Tom,
I thought the alliance green light goes off when they are playing defense. Do you recall where that is stated? I have searched some forums and the rule pdf files...can't find it. I was using "green lights" for searching.

Thanks,
ChuckB
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Unread 01-26-2006, 02:29 PM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

Each driving team consists of two DRIVERs, a COACH, a HUMAN PLAYER, and a LAMP WARMER.

The LAMP WARMER -- Each ALLIANCE shall provide one person to serve as LAMP WARMER, chosen from among the pre-college student members of the three teams in the ALLIANCE. Each LAMP WARMER shall be equipped with a 150-foot 3-conductor extension cord (at least 12AWG copper cable per conductor), a 120VAC 1000 watt heat gun, and a 10-foot Type IA step ladder. The extension cord and the heat gun must be unmodified and UL listed. The step ladder may be of any construction as long as it is certified as Type IA, and is equipped with rubber or other nonskid feet. The LAMP WARMER will climb the step ladder to prewarm the 2006 Vision Target. The LAMP WARMER may choose to remain on the ladder during the match, or climb down.
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Unread 01-26-2006, 06:20 PM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick TYler
Each driving team consists of two DRIVERs, a COACH, a HUMAN PLAYER, and a LAMP WARMER.

The LAMP WARMER -- Each ALLIANCE shall provide one person to serve as LAMP WARMER, chosen from among the pre-college student members of the three teams in the ALLIANCE. Each LAMP WARMER shall be equipped with a 150-foot 3-conductor extension cord (at least 12AWG copper cable per conductor), a 120VAC 1000 watt heat gun, and a 10-foot Type IA step ladder. The extension cord and the heat gun must be unmodified and UL listed. The step ladder may be of any construction as long as it is certified as Type IA, and is equipped with rubber or other nonskid feet. The LAMP WARMER will climb the step ladder to prewarm the 2006 Vision Target. The LAMP WARMER may choose to remain on the ladder during the match, or climb down.
Heh, that's awsome! New custom title time!


So my question is, not being very familiar with the cold-cathodes, if you have it running for a while (long enough to warm up), turn it off, and then turn it on a couple minutes later, is it still warmed up? How long does the cool-down take? It seems that some people in this thread have been assuming it will stay warmed up, while others are assuming it won't. Can anyone enlighten me?
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Unread 01-26-2006, 06:30 PM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by devicenull
But they are going to be on for at least one match before anything starts, so it won't be a big problem (I figure they run at least one match all the way through without robots, to make sure everything works)
From experience (I worked field reset in '03, at the Championship), FIRST will run at least one and probably two matches (1 to check the E-stop, 1 to check a full match). The targets should be warmed up.

Oh, and the rule about lights off...There isn't one, except for this sentence in Section 3.2.3:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Game Manual
...The vision system target will be illuminated when the Center Goal is “active” and available for scoring.
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Unread 01-26-2006, 06:30 PM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

well, ours is just fine in my opinion. we cold start, camera finds, locks, then tracks. of course, i wired it to a 12v battery plug and didn't use a fuse or anything like that...just straight wiring....so yeah.
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Unread 01-26-2006, 10:20 PM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by devicenull
I haven't noticed this at all.. I can go plug our camera and light in, after they have both sat off for a day, and the camera will find it no problem..

But they are going to be on for at least one match before anything starts, so it won't be a big problem (I figure they run at least one match all the way through without robots, to make sure everything works)
My problem is that when I open the color ranges up that far, the camera likes to see every other light source as well as the vision target. Only by narrowing the ranges down to the "warmed up" color can I eliminate that problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciencenerd
So my question is, not being very familiar with the cold-cathodes, if you have it running for a while (long enough to warm up), turn it off, and then turn it on a couple minutes later, is it still warmed up? How long does the cool-down take? It seems that some people in this thread have been assuming it will stay warmed up, while others are assuming it won't. Can anyone enlighten me?
They cool down relatively quickly, only needing approximately 1.5 minutes to cool down to the point that they are too dim to reliably track. If FIRST keeps them on in-between matches, there should be no problem.

And I like the lamp-warmer idea!
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"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheaply, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value."
-- Thomas Paine

If it's falling apart it's a mechanical problem. If it's spewing smoke it's a electrical problem.
If it's rampaging around destroying things it's a programming problem.

"All technology is run on 'Magic Smoke' contained within the device. As everyone knows, whenever the magic smoke is released, the device ceases to function."
-- Anonymous

I currently speak: English, some German, Verilog, x86 and 8051 Assembler, C, C++, VB, VB.NET, ASP, PHP, HTML, UNIX and SQL
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Unread 01-26-2006, 10:28 PM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

We have our light on a 120v to 12v conversion, using a landscape light adapter.

We noticed the warmup problem, and also noticed that a 12v direction was brighter. We attributed this to the landscape light transformer. Maybe its the lights themselves.

However, using the default setup have had no problems finding the green light and tracting movement, despite flourescent and incandesent lights trying to distract it.

WW.
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Unread 01-26-2006, 10:35 PM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Windwarrior
We have our light on a 120v to 12v conversion, using a landscape light adapter.

We noticed the warmup problem, and also noticed that a 12v direction was brighter. We attributed this to the landscape light transformer. Maybe its the lights themselves.

However, using the default setup have had no problems finding the green light and tracting movement, despite flourescent and incandesent lights trying to distract it.

WW.
I wonder if the problem could be my power supply voltage. Would 11.3V (my supply) vs. a true 12V make that much of a difference?
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"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheaply, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value."
-- Thomas Paine

If it's falling apart it's a mechanical problem. If it's spewing smoke it's a electrical problem.
If it's rampaging around destroying things it's a programming problem.

"All technology is run on 'Magic Smoke' contained within the device. As everyone knows, whenever the magic smoke is released, the device ceases to function."
-- Anonymous

I currently speak: English, some German, Verilog, x86 and 8051 Assembler, C, C++, VB, VB.NET, ASP, PHP, HTML, UNIX and SQL
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Unread 01-27-2006, 09:00 AM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eldarion
My problem is that when I open the color ranges up that far, the camera likes to see every other light source as well as the vision target. Only by narrowing the ranges down to the "warmed up" color can I eliminate that problem.
That's not a typical situation. In the YCrCb color space, the CMUCam is very good about tracking specific colors over a reasonably wide range of brightness. Are you sure you're not using the RGB color space?
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Unread 01-27-2006, 11:52 AM
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Re: Green target has to "warm up"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Anderson
That's not a typical situation. In the YCrCb color space, the CMUCam is very good about tracking specific colors over a reasonably wide range of brightness. Are you sure you're not using the RGB color space?
I'm in RGB. I can't believe I missed that!

Thanks!
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PM me for more information if you are interested (it's open source!).

Want the FIRST Email blasts? See here: http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=50809

"The harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheaply, we esteem too lightly; it is dearness only that gives everything its value."
-- Thomas Paine

If it's falling apart it's a mechanical problem. If it's spewing smoke it's a electrical problem.
If it's rampaging around destroying things it's a programming problem.

"All technology is run on 'Magic Smoke' contained within the device. As everyone knows, whenever the magic smoke is released, the device ceases to function."
-- Anonymous

I currently speak: English, some German, Verilog, x86 and 8051 Assembler, C, C++, VB, VB.NET, ASP, PHP, HTML, UNIX and SQL
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