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Unread 02-12-2018, 09:18 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

If the rules need to be read a specific way to convey the intended meaning, then they might not actually be clear.

But I'll let the lawyers hash it out.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 09:55 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Quote:
Originally Posted by ctt956 View Post
From Rules & Expectations for FIRST Robotics Competition Events, "Machine Tools at Events":



It does say sanders are allowed, though I have seen belt sanders throw sparks. A random orbit sander may be a good alternative, or as mentioned above, a portable band saw. For extremely tight spaces, a metal blade on an oscillating multi-tool could work.
There are always places that you can get permission to use spark creating tools. My point was that we will be bringing extra tools with the intent of offering tools and/or assistance to non-compliant teams. We have fairly portable grinders, bench top sanders, and a small band saw. Even given the admittedly small sample size, I suspect that earlier events may have a larger than normal demand for size reduction machining. Said demand may overrun the typical machine shops capacity and tools, at unbag. I like Kevin's idea of bringing some machined down kitbot axle bolts.

We will not need these tools for resizing exercises as we already have two (competition and practice) R03 compliant drive bases. Whether we will need them for repairs and fabrication remains to be seen.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:09 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrForbes View Post
If the rules need to be read a specific way to convey the intended meaning, then they might not actually be clear.

But I'll let the lawyers hash it out.
Is it a problem with the wording of the rule not being clear, or people's expectations (after 5 years of not needing to worry about minor protrusions due to differences in the sizing rules) leading them to not read the rules with the appropriate amount of attention?

That said, I think this may be worthy of a blue box in the future, just to point out that the minor protrusions allowed in R01 and R02 must still be within the dimensions listed in R03 (assuming we don't change how we measure the robot size again).
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  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-12-2018, 10:14 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Hold the phone. What am I missing?? How does R02 not exactly address what everyone is freaking out over... [bold emphasis mine]

R02. In the STARTING CONFIGURATION (the physical configuration in which a ROBOT starts a MATCH), no part of the ROBOT shall extend outside the vertical projection of the FRAME PERIMETER, with the exception of its BUMPERS and minor protrusions such as bolt heads, fastener ends, rivets, cable ties, etc.

Blue Box: If a ROBOT is designed as intended and each side is pushed up against
a vertical wall (in STARTING CONFIGURATION and with BUMPERS
removed), only the FRAME PERIMETER (or minor protrusions) will be in
contact with the wall.
The allowance for minor protrusions in R02 is intended to allow
protrusions that are both minor in extension from the FRAME
PERIMETER and cross sectional area.

So why are teams cutting their robots in half? Does the Q&A answer forget that R02 exists?
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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:18 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.O'Reilly View Post
...
So why are teams cutting their robots in half? Does the Q&A answer forget that R02 exists?
The OP and many others in this thread are concerned that some robots may comply with R02, but fail to comply with R03.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:23 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
Is it a problem with the wording of the rule not being clear, or people's expectations (after 5 years of not needing to worry about minor protrusions due to differences in the sizing rules) leading them to not read the rules with the appropriate amount of attention?
I would argue that any rule that is a large deviation from rules from multiple prior years should merit the extra attention of a Blue Box along with additional promotion via a blog post or some other method.

Teams are going to be illegal at their events because of this rule. Not only illegal, but incredibly illegal. It'll take most teams a long time to fix. I would like to see situations like this minimized as much as possible in future years.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:23 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Wallace View Post
The OP and many others in this thread are concerned that some robots may comply with R02, but fail to comply with R03.
Oh, hm, seems like a missed inconsistency on FIRST's part. I am not too concerned.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:25 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.O'Reilly View Post
Hold the phone. What am I missing?? How does R02 not exactly address what everyone is freaking out over...

So why are teams cutting their robots in half? Does the Q&A answer forget that R02 exists?
Because teams need to comply with R03 in addition to R02 (and in addition to all the other rules).

R02 is about how in Starting Configuration, nothing can extend outside the Frame Perimeter except for minor protrusions. R03 is about how in Starting Configuration, the entire robot (except Bumpers) needs to fit in a box. They're separate rules, and one clearly says "except minor protrusions" and one clearly doesn't.

Certainly it would have been nice if they were to say "Note that this rule doesn't have an exception for minor protrusions!" in the R03 blue box, and it wouldn't shock me if they read this discussion and add one in a Team Update this week, but the rules each individually need to be followed, and they often say subtly different things. The game rules sometimes care about the zone where the bumpers are, and sometimes care about a zone where any part of the robot is inside. Some rules care about "intent" or "strategy", and some are violations even if you were trying your hardest not to violate them. Small differences in wording can lead to quite different meanings, both in FRC rules, real-life laws, and real-life engineering specifications.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:27 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Quote:
Originally Posted by M.O'Reilly View Post
Oh, hm, seems like a missed inconsistency on FIRST's part. I am not too concerned.
Would you concede that some teams might overlook this rule, requiring them to fix it at their events?

Would you concede that the fix is unlikely to be easy and quick?

If so, I imagine that you might be concerned that those teams will have a bad experience.

It's going to happen and that's concerning to me.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:28 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jon Stratis View Post
Is it a problem with the wording of the rule not being clear, or people's expectations (after 5 years of not needing to worry about minor protrusions due to differences in the sizing rules) leading them to not read the rules with the appropriate amount of attention?

That said, I think this may be worthy of a blue box in the future, just to point out that the minor protrusions allowed in R01 and R02 must still be within the dimensions listed in R03 (assuming we don't change how we measure the robot size again).
I think it is both - changing expectations lead to even experienced teams missing that subtle distinction between "frame perimeter" and "robot max volume," especially considering that for most of those 5 years "frame perimeter" was the feature determining max robot size.

I imagine next year the rules will change again, and the GDC will have to use a blue box to call special attention to how R01-03 differ from previous years.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:32 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger Power View Post
I would argue that any rule that is a large deviation from rules from multiple prior years should merit the extra attention of a Blue Box along with additional promotion via a blog post or some other method.

Teams are going to be illegal at their events because of this rule. Not only illegal, but incredibly illegal. It'll take most teams a long time to fix. I would like to see situations like this minimized as much as possible in future years.
While I agree with the above statement ....

FIRST is not responsible for ensuring teams read the rules carefully, only that they comply with the rules when at competition.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:34 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
While I agree with the above statement ....

FIRST is not responsible for ensuring teams read the rules carefully, only that they comply with the rules when at competition.
Totally agreed. There's only so much FIRST can do. The only way to really solve this problem is for teams to communicate with each other and help each other.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:37 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
While I agree with the above statement ....

FIRST is not responsible for ensuring teams read the rules carefully, only that they comply with the rules when at competition.
While I agree with you as well...

FIRST is also an organization whose mission and vision behooves them to design the games and present the rules in a way that helps the majority of teams bring their ideas to fruition (i.e. actually compete). I think in this case they did not do a good job.
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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:38 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

That's about the size of it.

If the rules were clear, we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we?
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Unread 02-12-2018, 10:40 AM
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Re: R03 PSA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginger Power View Post
Would you concede that some teams might overlook this rule, requiring them to fix it at their events?

Would you concede that the fix is unlikely to be easy and quick?

If so, I imagine that you might be concerned that those teams will have a bad experience.

It's going to happen and that's concerning to me.
Sorry, I think you misunderstood me. Teams will be distraught if "gotcha" LRIs enforce this non-sensical gap in the rules. I am not arguing that. I totally understand the compassionate sentiment.

I mean that for my own team's purposes, we will not be cutting our frame. And I want other mentors, volunteers, and even inspectors to think about this logically and push back.

It just doesn't make sense to start two back-to-back rules with "In the starting configuration" and apply two different standards of tolerance that apply to the same condition (condition being in the starting configuration).

This is an oversight that is now being microscopically examined beyond the spirit of the rules. FIRST was the organization that taught me about "spirit of the rules" about 14 years ago. Sticks with me.

It's important to keep our perspective here. Forrest through the trees.
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