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  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 02-27-2018, 10:45 AM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

Also to what extent does the item need to be fabricated? Can I use scrap sheet metal or do I have to start with a brand new sheet? Can my tube be cut to length? What if the piece of material came from last year's robot and I trimmed the sides off for a new dimension?

What's the minimum amount of work for a part to be considered "fabricated" during the unbag session? Everything I mentioned above is scrap material that we bring to every competition already.
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Unread 02-27-2018, 10:55 AM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

TL, DR - Bag rules are dumb.

When we get rid of them, we will look back on this as a dark period in our history, like Small Parts and Lunacy.
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Unread 02-27-2018, 11:19 AM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

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Originally Posted by RegionalTeam View Post
So I think I found an exploit in the district team 6 hour unbag rules. ...snip...
Could this be how some district teams improve so much over the season, especially ones that see huge spikes towards their last events?
Big gains in performance are typical from first event to second event. Historically with a non-capped points system, I have seen gains of about 60% from first event to 2nd event. There are usually several reasons for this:

#1 Driver experience. Often controls are still being developed up to and through 1st event. Drivers tend to get the worst end of this deal and get little experience until actually competing. After first event, they usually get a real chance to practice during one of those 2 hour unbag sessions.

#2 Usually finally fixed the XYZ thingamagig. Often teams have at least 1 or two features that get vastly improved upon due to a few minor tweaks. These tweaks make a big difference. Some of those tweaks can really only get refined when on the field.

#3 Better strategy from watching and learning, and knowing what role your team plays best. Often teams want to be the quarterback, fieldgoal kicker, linebacker, and punt returner.... After an event and round in elims, they learned that they are a good running back, and okay at defensive line. As a group though, once teams have learned this, the alliances tend to work better together, and the scores go up.

******************
Have I seen teams make big changes.... you betcha. Have those changes improved the way they play... often. Do I suspect there are teams violating unbag rules.... probably, but most are doing it through misinterpretation or lack of knowledge about the rules.

Pretty much all of the big changes I have witnessed have been perfectly legal relative to that seasons rules. The biggest violations I have seen were not due to time constraints, but due to a misunderstanding between "fabricating in the pits" vs. "Fabricating in your pit space".
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Unread 02-27-2018, 12:03 PM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

In 2011 my team (read: me, as coach) misread the rule related to districts, since I had never heard of "districts" before. We took the robot out of the bag six times for one hour each, and worked on it, and documented it. When we went to our only regional we were frank and honest, then mortified when we discovered our mistake. The robot sat in the bag in our pit for six hours on Thursday while we twiddled our thumbs and felt awful. But at least it was an honest mistake, and had a suitable penalty.

Now we work our asses off to make two identical robots, and we plan and weigh our parts to take to competition. If we really wanted to cheat, it would be super easy, and then we would be in the wrong competition. I want to thank the FIRST community for almost universally being the type of people who do the right thing for the right reasons.
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Unread 02-27-2018, 12:43 PM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

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Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
In 2011 my team (read: me, as coach) misread the rule related to districts, since I had never heard of "districts" before. We took the robot out of the bag six times for one hour each, and worked on it, and documented it. When we went to our only regional we were frank and honest, then mortified when we discovered our mistake. The robot sat in the bag in our pit for six hours on Thursday while we twiddled our thumbs and felt awful. But at least it was an honest mistake, and had a suitable penalty.
I had a similar issue with a team at an event I was LRI for a number of years ago. I came to a similar arrangement with the team, and I still trade barbs with their lead mentor whenever I run into him (He's a great guy, really gets, and took full ownership of their mistake). It really was the best outcome all around for a difficult situation.
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Unread 02-27-2018, 01:02 PM
bjtheone bjtheone is offline
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

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Originally Posted by s_forbes View Post
R22 clarifies the intent, but you are right that R19-H makes no mention of what is allowed to be done to the robot during a "ROBOT Access Period". ROBOT Access Period is not defined in the glossary, either.

R19-H should probably be edited to state that only 30lbs of prefabricated parts may be used during a ROBOT Access Period





That's not an argument. The point raised by the original poster is still valid.
R19-H defines which teams get a Robot Access Period. R20 defines the Robot Access period rules (6 hours total, 2 hour minimum session, in the 7 days before the event). R22 defines the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE and how it interacts with the Robot Access Period.

Based on the intersection of those rules I would say the Robot Access period is similar to regular build season with the exception that you can only access up to 30 pounds of prefabricated items (and any prefabricated items you use, deducts off the withholding allowance you can bring into the event). There are no restrictions on accessing COTs items, or on items that you fabricate during the Robot Access period.

I do not see how that is in any way unclear. R19-H by itself does not restrict what you can do. However, R22 puts additional conditions on prefabricated items, and specifically calls out the Robot Access Period. It has exactly the restriction/clarification that you want added to R19-H.

The Robot Access Period is supposed to be a equalizer between 3 day events, where you get a large window to work on your robot, and 2 day events where you do not. You get access to exactly the same 30 pounds of prefabricated items (that you got to keep out of the bag at stop build) and could take into a 3 day event.

The trolling comment was to do with the implications made that teams were building two robots and swapping them.

Last edited by bjtheone : 02-27-2018 at 01:16 PM. Reason: Clarity
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Unread 02-27-2018, 01:04 PM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

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Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
The robot sat in the bag in our pit for six hours on Thursday while we twiddled our thumbs and felt awful. But at least it was an honest mistake, and had a suitable penalty.
How inspiring...
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Unread 02-27-2018, 01:48 PM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

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Originally Posted by marshall View Post
How inspiring...
It actually was, in a way. Two very inspiring moments were that year, and the following year, when we didn't read the bumper mounting rules correctly.

https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...ight=1339+2012

We were thoroughly embarrassed, but we learned a lot. I measure our rise as a competitive team from the low point of those two years. I'm really quite ashamed of myself when I think about how poorly I led the team back then, but I am proud of what the students have accomplished since then. Inspiration can come in different forms.
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Unread 02-27-2018, 01:54 PM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

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Originally Posted by FABLABFULTONMO View Post
Some people may cheat and find a way around some rules, some robots are going to be mentor builds, some are going to do it right. I try to just worry about my team and let everything else just sort itself out.

Hopefully one day we can get rid of the bag as it seems to be a waste of resources that my team struggles with each year.
Suggesting that only your way is the right way is incorrect. And for goodness sake, keep the whole mentor built baloney in a thread where people still have the patience to debate it. You are wrong.
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Unread 02-27-2018, 01:57 PM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

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Originally Posted by marshall View Post
How inspiring...
Our team learned a ton when our primary mechanism in 2016 passed outside the allowAble envelope when it actuated. Those team members are far more deliberate now with checking rules compliance. Bet that stays with them forever, so I'm inspired.
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Unread 02-27-2018, 02:32 PM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Verdeyen View Post
TL, DR - Bag rules are dumb.

When we get rid of them, we will look back on this as a dark period in our history, like Small Parts and Lunacy.
I'll take bag rules over the good old days of FIRST, where you robot had to be crated and shipped with a postmark of stop build day. Then you have shipping companies who don't care what is in the crate handling it, stack crates 7 high, it tumbles, and you show up to a competition with a pile of metal as your robot.

(And it still happens today, a team at 2017 worlds showed up with a forklift blade hole straight through their crate and straight through their robot.)

My one comment/question for the thread, we have been debating what R22 means with the word STATIC:
Quote:
R22: ... The WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE is a static set of FABRICATED ITEMS that shall not exceed 30 lbs. (~13 kg.), brought to an event (or ROBOT Access Period) in addition to the bagged items, to be used to repair and/or upgrade their ROBOT. ...
How long is static implied for? To us, we read it as once an item has been put in the withholding allowance, it is now part of that static set of parts, and that weight is lost for the season. Is that the correct interpretation??? (the 2017 manual also uses the word static)
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Unread 02-27-2018, 02:39 PM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Carmain View Post
I'll take bag rules over the good old days of FIRST, where you robot had to be crated and shipped with a postmark of stop build day. Then you have shipping companies who don't care what is in the crate handling it, stack crates 7 high, it tumbles, and you show up to a competition with a pile of metal as your robot.

(And it still happens today, a team at 2017 worlds showed up with a forklift blade hole straight through their crate and straight through their robot.)

My one comment/question for the thread, we have been debating what R22 means with the word STATIC:


How long is static implied for? To us, we read it as once an item has been put in the withholding allowance, it is now part of that static set of parts, and that weight is lost for the season. Is that the correct interpretation??? (the 2017 manual also uses the word static)
It is static for that event. You get 30 lbs per event.
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Unread 02-27-2018, 03:05 PM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

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Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
It actually was, in a way. Two very inspiring moments were that year, and the following year, when we didn't read the bumper mounting rules correctly.

https://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/s...ight=1339+2012

We were thoroughly embarrassed, but we learned a lot. I measure our rise as a competitive team from the low point of those two years. I'm really quite ashamed of myself when I think about how poorly I led the team back then, but I am proud of what the students have accomplished since then. Inspiration can come in different forms.
Emphasis added.

I get it, 900 fails constantly. We wouldn't be the team we are without failure but the failure by itself isn't inspirational, it's miserable and awful and it sucks and I hate it.

When I look back on our failures (and there are many upon many) it is not the failure itself that I find inspirational but what came out of it. That's the difference. Determination and drive are what inspire us, not the act of failing.

Making a team sit and stare at their robot in a bag for hours is lame.

Someone is going to ask me if I feel there is a more suitable punishment... I don't. I want to remove the bag. You could say that my determination and drive to see it relegated to the historical record is quite strong as I've failed thus far to have it removed.
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Unread 02-27-2018, 03:06 PM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

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Originally Posted by notmattlythgoe View Post
It is static for that event. You get 30 lbs per event.
Amazingly, what Matt said. Static per event is as opposed a dynamic set of parts where you load 60 lbs of spares in the trailer, then bring them in 5 lbs at a time as things break. The idea is that you get one chance to select all the spares and other fabricated items you want for an event, and you bring that set of items in when you load in.
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Unread 02-27-2018, 03:09 PM
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Re: Unbag Hours Robot Swap

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Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik View Post
Amazingly, what Matt said. Static per event is as opposed a dynamic set of parts where you load 60 lbs of spares in the trailer, then bring them in 5 lbs at a time as things break. The idea is that you get one chance to select all the spares and other fabricated items you want for an event, and you bring that set of items in when you load in.
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