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Unread 03-12-2010, 08:01 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Doenges View Post
My advice, FWIW, is DON'T DRIVE OVER THE BALLS!!!!
You're kidding right? I mean - why didn't we think of that! Jeash - it's so obvious now.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 08:27 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicen View Post
"tell them to do their job" is a rude thing to say. all of these refs are volunteers. i know a lot of people get caught up in the heat of things, but these refs have lives outside of FIRST.

per say, my mom's a head ref. while at our regional i was talking with another team and they started bashing the refs. after telling them one was my mother they all felt horrible.

it really shouldn't matter though, the refs can't be expected to be absolutely perfect, and the best way to get things fixed is to approach in a kind and forgiving manner.

i'm not trying to say that the refs are right, i'm just saying show some GP. that's what we're really here to do
I still see nothing wrong with what I stated and feel it is fully in line with FIRST's policy of Gracious Professionalism. I understand that to others, especially someone within your situation, may find this a rude way of putting it, but in all honesty it is more blunt than rude. I thank all of the volunteers for all of their work on those days because it makes what we do possible, but on the other side of things, what about us. We students have worked tirelessly and obsessively for the past 6 weeks, and for many of us we have read the rule book over several times and have kept up with the updates on a daily basis. So when competition day comes and a ref makes an inaccurate call it undermines the work of all those students and makes the game unfair to those teams. I feel it is more than fair for those of us in FIRST who continue to follow the virtues of Gracious Professionalism to ask the same of our volunteers, and part of being Graciously Professional is knowing what your job is and how to perform the duties of it accurately.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 08:36 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

I actually see this as necessary in cases.

At Cass Tech District, I dare say that 30/40 teams would have been called for G46s under the old G46. However, the rule change made it so that many of these teams, some of which were repeat offenders (2-3 times in a "good" match), had no incentive to actually fix the problem.

I will say that the referees were good at calling the penalty often times when a team played defense with a trapped ball. However, in my opinion, a robot that drives over a ball 95% of the time when driving forwards with a ball in front of it needs to be fixed, but the rules permit teams to play otherwise.

Just my $.02.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 08:45 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostmage333 View Post
I will say that the referees were good at calling the penalty often times when a team played defense with a trapped ball. However, in my opinion, a robot that drives over a ball 95% of the time when driving forwards with a ball in front of it needs to be fixed, but the rules permit teams to play otherwise.

Just my $.02.
While I agree that penalties for these teams may be a good incentive to fix their issues, in my opinion they already have an incentive. If you must immediately correct the incursion you will spend valuable match time getting balls out from under your machine if it runs over balls frequently.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 08:47 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

Quote:
Originally Posted by JHSmentor View Post
You're kidding right? I mean - why didn't we think of that! Jeash - it's so obvious now.
If everyone had thought about it when designing their robot...this wouldn't be such a common a problem. Sorry to say, but I think the blame of this issue is 50/50. Just cause the GDC went lax, try to still make your robot ball resistant. I have to agree with Wayne on this one.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 08:54 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lostmage333 View Post
I actually see this as necessary in cases.

At Cass Tech District, I dare say that 30/40 teams would have been called for G46s under the old G46. However, the rule change made it so that many of these teams, some of which were repeat offenders (2-3 times in a "good" match), had no incentive to actually fix the problem.

I will say that the referees were good at calling the penalty often times when a team played defense with a trapped ball. However, in my opinion, a robot that drives over a ball 95% of the time when driving forwards with a ball in front of it needs to be fixed, but the rules permit teams to play otherwise.

Just my $.02.
There is no time in which this is necessary or acceptable. A referee must know, thoroughly, all of the rules and any updates or changes that have been made to them, and make their calls according to these rules. In the case in which you have presented the situation is different though, according to update 16

Quote:
<G46> BALL Penetration Restriction – The BALL must not extend more than 3 inches inside the FRAME PERIMETER as defined in Rule <R19>. Incidental protrusions of the BALL within this boundary will not be penalized if the TEAM corrects the condition before resuming game play. Violation: PENALTY for a basic infraction, plus a YELLOW CARD if no immediate attempt to remedy and/or the action is deemed intentional.
meaning that if as you say a robot is continuing to play defense once a ball has entered it's frame perimeter more than 3 inches then it constitutes a penalty, the incentive comes from the fact that by not correcting the problem before you continue to play the game still calls for a penalty. The problem is uninformed officials making decisions based on an outdated set of rules, unrelated to the case you have shown.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 08:58 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

while i do think this should be corrected, i also think that we should use GP when asking the refs to follow the update, i also think that if they're still calling it we just have to be careful to not get a ball stuck under us
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Unread 03-12-2010, 09:22 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

yea so in our reginal at wpi only one team got a yellow card for flipping over a robot and our team got doubled penalty for crossing the line our first match
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Unread 03-12-2010, 09:25 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie_1930 View Post
I still see nothing wrong with what I stated and feel it is fully in line with FIRST's policy of Gracious Professionalism. I understand that to others, especially someone within your situation, may find this a rude way of putting it, but in all honesty it is more blunt than rude. I thank all of the volunteers for all of their work on those days because it makes what we do possible, but on the other side of things, what about us. We students have worked tirelessly and obsessively for the past 6 weeks, and for many of us we have read the rule book over several times and have kept up with the updates on a daily basis. So when competition day comes and a ref makes an inaccurate call it undermines the work of all those students and makes the game unfair to those teams. I feel it is more than fair for those of us in FIRST who continue to follow the virtues of Gracious Professionalism to ask the same of our volunteers, and part of being Graciously Professional is knowing what your job is and how to perform the duties of it accurately.
i'm a student too, and i know what students go through, so i'm not trying to speak from a totally clueless position here.
but, what i don't believe you see is that the refs also spend a difficult six weeks refining the rules, discussing how to call them and arguing over FAQ questions. i can't tell you how many times my mom (head ref) or my dad (scorekeeper) would say, "we've gotta hurry up with dinner i have a ref/scorekeepers conference call at 8"
so despite what you might think about them not "doing their job" there's a lot that you are not aware of. the refs also read the rule book over and over, some even make tests for their non head refs to take so that they know all the rules!

anyway, i'm just saying you shouldn't throw something in somebody's face, no matter who they are or what they do, just because you're a little angry they had a lapse in judgment.

and a last point to make; if you really think the refs aren't doing a good enough job, then maybe try out what they're doing and see how difficult it is to watch 6 separate robots and get every call spot on
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Unread 03-12-2010, 09:37 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

Quote:
Originally Posted by alicen View Post

anyway, i'm just saying you shouldn't throw something in somebody's face, no matter who they are or what they do, just because you're a little angry they had a lapse in judgment.

and a last point to make; if you really think the refs aren't doing a good enough job, then maybe try out what they're doing and see how difficult it is to watch 6 separate robots and get every call spot on
Agreed.

I would sugest getting togeather some other teams and aproching the head ref in a professional manner in the morning. That way he will be able to correct the error before the matches begin and it will be fairer for everyone. Besides, if you tell him after the matches begin, he will be reluctant to change simply because it would mean that some of the matches were played by different rules putting the teams with earlier matches at a disadvantage (especially when this year penalties make such a difference).

my 2 cents.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 10:01 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikesrock View Post
From what I saw (which was quite a few matches from Florida, WPI, Pittsburgh and Arizona) it appeared that there were a lot less ball incursion violations being called at these events compared to week 1 events.
I have yet to see a penalty for WPI ball incursion. On the off chance it happens, it's corrected immediately by the driver and no one flags it.

I'd be really pissed if this happened to me, and being told "my ref made the correct call" despite quoting a rule that directly contradicts them that costs you QP.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 10:09 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

Part of Gracious Professionalism is the Professional bit. Doesn't matter if you're a volunteer or a staff member, a failure of this level in the real world would result in getting fired.

I sure hope they don't give out any penalties during week three, or the SVR refs will NOT like the lashback.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 10:12 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

I talked with Mike, one of the referees late Thursday night. (I think. It could have been early this morning.) He said that a question had been raised concerning the interpretation of a word in the new rules. He was unsure of what the exact word was, but I believe it was the word "incidental." Specifically, their question was whether an situation where a team, for example, drives over a ball while trying to control it, is incidental, or if that counts as the teams fault. If a team could have reasonably avoided the penalty, is it incidental?

I definitely agree that there are a lot of penalties being called that are definitely incidental, and are completely random chance. It is nice to know the refs point of view though.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 10:19 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamie_1930 View Post
Don't talk to us go tell your ref, wave the update in his or her face, and tell them to do their job. Sorry if that last part comes of as rude to anyone, but that is unexcusable.
You don't wave jack s*** in front of a refs face. You politely approach them the next morning before the next matches start and ask them what the rulings were based upon. Follow the correct procedure as Mike and WildStang did.

If the ref knows he/she is at fault, he/she will apologize and correct the situation accordingly.

Craig and Jamie, I'd love to see you do a job perfectly 100% of the time.
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Unread 03-12-2010, 10:42 PM
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Re: Drive-over penalties still being called

Quote:
Originally Posted by CraigHickman View Post
Doesn't matter if you're a volunteer or a staff member, a failure of this level in the real world would result in getting fired.
Simply not true. It happens every day and people still keep their jobs.
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