OCCRA
Go to Post I know that it's often dangerous to use common sense in a YMTC thread... - Kris Verdeyen [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-08-2010, 09:06 PM
RoboDesigners's Avatar
RoboDesigners RoboDesigners is offline
Registered User
VRC #2190 (RoboDesigners)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 372
RoboDesigners will become famous soon enoughRoboDesigners will become famous soon enough
Re: Are they really robots?

It seems that defining the term "robot" is just as hard as defining the term "life."
__________________
Visit my website! www.RoboDesigners.com

(Former )VRC Team #2190

Twitter: @RoboDesigners
Reply With Quote
  #17   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-08-2010, 09:12 PM
billbo911's Avatar
billbo911 billbo911 is offline
I prefer you give a perfect effort.
AKA: That's "Mr. Bill"
FRC #2073 (EagleForce)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Elk Grove, Ca.
Posts: 2,670
billbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond reputebillbo911 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Are they really robots?

Let's not leave out the Web's wonderful definition source "Wikipedia".

"A robot is an automatically guided machine which is able to do tasks on its own, almost always due to electronically-programmed instructions. Another common characteristic is that by its appearance or movements, a robot often conveys a sense that it has intent or agency of its own."

I like to tell my students that a robot is a device, or system, that performs planned tasks based on it's programming and input from sensors that sense it's environment, automatically.
A robotic devise, on the other hand, reacts to real-time inputs from humans and it's sensors and performs tasks based on programming and those inputs.

Now I don't claim that this is a definition of the two, but I do believe it is a fair representation.

That being said, I believe it is also fair to say that as long as the "robot" functions in autonomous mode, it is both a robot and can function as a robotic device.
__________________
CalGames 2009 Autonomous Champion Award
2012 Sacramento Semi-Finals, 2012 Sacramento Innovation in Control Award, 2012 SVR Judges Award.
2012 CalGames Autonomous Challenge Award winner ($$$).
2014 2X Rockwell Automation: Innovation in Control Award (CVR and SAC).
Curie Division Gracious Professionalism Award.
2014 Capital City Classic Winner AND Runner Up. Madtown Throwdown: Runner up.
2015 Innovation in Control Award, Sacramento.
2016 Chezy Champs Finalist, 2016 MTTD Finalist
2017 Utah Regional Winner!, Sacramento Finalist
Innovation in Control Newton/Carver Divisions , Newton #5 Captain
2018 WFFA Sacramento, Creativity Award Galileo-Robling Divisions
Reply With Quote
  #18   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-08-2010, 09:13 PM
ATannahill ATannahill is offline
Developing tomorrow's best people
AKA: Alex Tannahill
no team
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Southfield, Michigan
Posts: 3,451
ATannahill has a reputation beyond reputeATannahill has a reputation beyond reputeATannahill has a reputation beyond reputeATannahill has a reputation beyond reputeATannahill has a reputation beyond reputeATannahill has a reputation beyond reputeATannahill has a reputation beyond reputeATannahill has a reputation beyond reputeATannahill has a reputation beyond reputeATannahill has a reputation beyond reputeATannahill has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Are they really robots?

I have to ask, what is the relevance of this?

Does the fact that this machine is not totally autonomous mean that I have learned less? Is the knowledge that I gained obsolete? Am I less of a person making less of a contribution because the robot is not a robot?

MY answer is no. I say that I will not let this molehill derail anything that I have done or am doing or will do.

What, in the real sense of things, does this thread add that cannot be gained from a water game thread?
__________________
I am a volunteer that reads the manual during kickoff day (and updates and Q&A when available) and I try my best to help people with questions that are posted.

I base my answers off of the game manual, Q&A responses and field tour videos at the time of my post. Rules will probably be modified or clarified between this post and your competition. My post means nothing to event officials. Please keep up with team manual updates and the FRC Q&A.
Reply With Quote
  #19   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-08-2010, 09:20 PM
kstl99's Avatar
kstl99 kstl99 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Kevin
FRC #1922 (Oz-Ram)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Hopkinton, NH
Posts: 422
kstl99 has a reputation beyond reputekstl99 has a reputation beyond reputekstl99 has a reputation beyond reputekstl99 has a reputation beyond reputekstl99 has a reputation beyond reputekstl99 has a reputation beyond reputekstl99 has a reputation beyond reputekstl99 has a reputation beyond reputekstl99 has a reputation beyond reputekstl99 has a reputation beyond reputekstl99 has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to kstl99
Re: Are they really robots?

I think there are different definitions of robot and robotic and they are evolving. As far as robots only being autonomous what about robotic surgery that is completely controlled by the surgeon?
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #20   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-08-2010, 09:35 PM
RoboDesigners's Avatar
RoboDesigners RoboDesigners is offline
Registered User
VRC #2190 (RoboDesigners)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 372
RoboDesigners will become famous soon enoughRoboDesigners will become famous soon enough
Re: Are they really robots?

I think I agree with rtfgnow. This debate isn't really that important. (Although this is a debate that I have often with some of my friends!)

What I learn in FIRST (and VEX) is applicable to the "real world" and that is really all I care about. Whether I am making a true robot or just programming an R/C car doesn't matter. What matters is the discipline learned in documenting my work and the mindset of a programmer that I have learned. FIRST has succeeded in its goal of inspiring and recognizing science and technology. Whether or not it uses "real" robots is irrelevant.
__________________
Visit my website! www.RoboDesigners.com

(Former )VRC Team #2190

Twitter: @RoboDesigners
Reply With Quote
  #21   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-08-2010, 09:45 PM
Vikesrock Vikesrock is offline
Team 2175 Founder
AKA: Kevin O'Connor
FRC #0238
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Manchester, NH
Posts: 3,312
Vikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond reputeVikesrock has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Vikesrock Send a message via MSN to Vikesrock Send a message via Yahoo to Vikesrock
Re: Are they really robots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Line View Post
I'm not sure where you are going with this.
Tom,

I'm not sure exactly where I was going either. This was similar to a line of questioning posed to me today and I just wanted to get some opinions and responses from the CD community as I don't think I was able to express my thoughts on the matter very well.

In general, I agree with many of the sentiments expressed in this thread. Whether they are robots or robotic systems is irrelevant. We are not trying to provide the end-all-be-all of robotics education, FIRST is merely a launching point for those interested in pursuing careers in robotics, science or technology. Students can then add to their knowledge through college and potentially other competitions that may be more "pure" robots.

Thanks for the input guys, I appreciate it.
Reply With Quote
  #22   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-08-2010, 09:54 PM
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 22,246
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Are they really robots?

I took a look at the website of a maker of military and police/bomb disposal robots today after I made my earlier post. If "robot" is defined as it was above, that manufacturer would be guilty of false advertising.

I think what has really happened is that the definition of robot has expanded (again--after all, it used to be only used for human-resembling mechanical creations) and the robotics industry as a group has been slow to recognize that fact (with the exception of some manufacturers who push the new definition). Dictionaries are even slower to recognize the change officially.

I think the best term if you want to be totally correct is "semi-autonomous robot". It's a robot, but it relies on operator interface.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots; 2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics; 2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk



Reply With Quote
  #23   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-08-2010, 10:19 PM
Bertman's Avatar
Bertman Bertman is offline
Registered User
FRC #0418 (Purple Haze)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Austin,Texas
Posts: 120
Bertman has a reputation beyond reputeBertman has a reputation beyond reputeBertman has a reputation beyond reputeBertman has a reputation beyond reputeBertman has a reputation beyond reputeBertman has a reputation beyond reputeBertman has a reputation beyond reputeBertman has a reputation beyond reputeBertman has a reputation beyond reputeBertman has a reputation beyond reputeBertman has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Are they really robots?

I think it is a matter if perspective. All robots require output, analysis and input to perform it's functions. Some use an integral computer or computers and are hard wired into the device. Some use a Bio-chemical-electronic computer (our brain)and are connected by radio waves. To my mind, same net result, though it may be much harder to control via the later in some aspects.
Reply With Quote
  #24   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-08-2010, 10:26 PM
artdutra04's Avatar
artdutra04 artdutra04 is offline
VEX Robotics Engineer
AKA: Arthur Dutra IV
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Greenville, TX
Posts: 3,113
artdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Are they really robots?

Short answer: They're robots.

Long answer: Even if some machines used in the FIRST Robotics Competition are not true robots, the vast majority employ enough of the characteristics of a what a reasonable person would consider a "robot" that as a group they are collectively referred to as robots.


P.S. Don't listen to dictionaries for definitions of technical subjects. Technology moves faster than their editorial committee can vote on new word definitions. For example, look up agile or waterfall in a dictionary. You'll see nothing remotely related to software engineering.
__________________
Art Dutra IV
Senior Robotics Engineer, VEX Robotics, Inc., a subsidiary of Innovation First International (IFI)
Robowranglers Team 148 | GUS Robotics Team 228 (Alumni) | Rho Beta Epsilon (Alumni) | @arthurdutra
Reply With Quote
  #25   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-08-2010, 10:32 PM
gblake's Avatar
gblake gblake is offline
6th Gear Developer; Mentor
AKA: Blake Ross
no team (6th Gear)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: May 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 2,005
gblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond reputegblake has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Are they really robots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikesrock View Post
...
I am interested in hearing the thoughts of others on this topic. I'll wait a bit before I post mine here.
Here is an easy way to defuse the situation. Agree with the questioner.

Answer "No - They aren't robots in many traditional senses of the word. However, we really don't care. That aspect of what we do is not central to the outcome of the program. Saying that we build machines instead of saying that we build robots would not be an important change. Now, lets talk about something important..."

FMC? (FIRST Machinery Competition)

Blake
__________________
Blake Ross, For emailing me, in the verizon.net domain, I am blake
VRC Team Mentor, FTC volunteer, 5th Gear Developer, Husband, Father, Triangle Fraternity Alumnus (ky 76), U Ky BSEE, Tau Beta Pi, Eta Kappa Nu, Kentucky Colonel
Words/phrases I avoid: basis, mitigate, leveraging, transitioning, impact (instead of affect/effect), facilitate, programmatic, problematic, issue (instead of problem), latency (instead of delay), dependency (instead of prerequisite), connectivity, usage & utilize (instead of use), downed, functionality, functional, power on, descore, alumni (instead of alumnus/alumna), the enterprise, methodology, nomenclature, form factor (instead of size or shape), competency, modality, provided(with), provision(ing), irregardless/irrespective, signage, colorized, pulsating, ideate
Reply With Quote
  #26   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-09-2010, 12:15 AM
RoboDesigners's Avatar
RoboDesigners RoboDesigners is offline
Registered User
VRC #2190 (RoboDesigners)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Virginia
Posts: 372
RoboDesigners will become famous soon enoughRoboDesigners will become famous soon enough
Re: Are they really robots?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gblake View Post
FMC? (FIRST Machinery Competition)
I was waiting for someone to say something like that!
__________________
Visit my website! www.RoboDesigners.com

(Former )VRC Team #2190

Twitter: @RoboDesigners
Reply With Quote
  #27   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-09-2010, 01:51 AM
Jack Jones Jack Jones is offline
Retired
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Waterford, MI
Posts: 964
Jack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Are they really robots?

Quote:
From the movie I, Robot:

Detective Spooner: Human beings have dreams. Even dogs have dreams, but not you; you are just a machine, an imitation of life. Can a robot write a symphony? Can a robot turn a canvas into a beautiful masterpiece?

Robot: Can You?
Do not share this with that someone in the robotics industry. He may begin to wonder wheather he is really human.
__________________
This message is hidden because Jack Jones is on your ignore list.
Reply With Quote
  #28   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-09-2010, 08:05 AM
Taylor's Avatar
Taylor Taylor is offline
Professor of Thinkology, ThD
AKA: @taylorstem
FRC #3487 (Red Pride Robotics)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Plainfield, IN, USA 46168
Posts: 4,933
Taylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Are they really robots?

According to a display I saw at the Indiana State Fair two months ago, robots have four distinct components:

1. Sensors
2. Controller/Program
3. Kinematics/Mechanisms
4. Actuators/Motors

FRC, FTC, FLL, and VRC have these (I presume BEST and NURC and BattleBots and BunnyBots and the litany of other competitions do too, but I've never personally seen them).

A generally accepted definition of a robot is a machine that reacts to its environment through the use of sensors, actuators, mechanisms, and programmed control. For all the aforementioned competitions - Check.

As for the teleop/autonomous argument, I see no difference between those. Does it really matter if the sensor used by the robot is a potentiometer, ultrasonic device, or joystick? They're all inputs, are they not? There's no direct causation between pushing a joystick forward and the robot moving in a forward direction. The program still has to interpret input data and react accordingly.

To a robot, a human is as much its environment as a soccer ball, vision target, or diamondplate wall, so to force such a distinction simply for the sake of definition would be unnecessary.

Are they robots? Sure. Does it matter if they're not? Other than semantics, not really.

For our next exercise, we should define Beauty and Truth.
__________________
Hi!

Last edited by Taylor : 09-09-2010 at 02:15 PM. Reason: philosophy 101
Reply With Quote
  #29   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-09-2010, 08:07 AM
Jared Russell's Avatar
Jared Russell Jared Russell is offline
4933T15
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs), FRC #0341 (Miss Daisy)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 3,561
Jared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond reputeJared Russell has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Are they really robots?

Autonomy is not the only discriminator on whether or not something is a robot.

My washer and dryer use a variety of sensors and pre-programmed instructions to wet my clothes, dispense detergent, rinse them, and dry them automatically until they have reached a certain level of dryness. Yet they are not called robots.

At the same time, EOD (explosive ordinance disposal, ie. bomb defusing) robots are (currently) almost always teleoperated, yet the military, industry, and academia call them robots far more often than not.

As it turns out, it is easy to come up with counter examples to any cut-and-dry "is it or isn't it a robot" rule. The higher the levels of physical agency (mobility and manipulation within/of the environment), mental agency (automatic controls, feedback, and reactive behaviors), and anthropomorphism or zoomorphism (the more they physically or functionally resemble a living organism), the more likely something is to be agreed upon as a robot, but it's hard to unambiguously draw the separators.

I recommend that people read the following two Wikipedia pages, which have excellent discussions on the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot#Definitions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telerobotics

My personal opinion is that a large number of FIRST robots have enough (a) physical agency to manipulate and maneuver through an environment, (b) mental agency via autonomous mode and sensor-guided control (via onboard or offboard - ex. joystick - sensors), and (c) functional resemblance to a human or animal - e.g. a soccer or basketball player - to be considered "robots" and not just "machines" or "systems" (an even more ambiguous term).
Reply With Quote
  #30   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-09-2010, 08:57 AM
Rich Kressly's Avatar
Rich Kressly Rich Kressly is offline
Robot/STEM troublemaker since 2001
no team (Formerly 103 & 1712. Now run U.P. Robotics (other programs))
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Pennsburg, PA
Posts: 1,951
Rich Kressly has a reputation beyond reputeRich Kressly has a reputation beyond reputeRich Kressly has a reputation beyond reputeRich Kressly has a reputation beyond reputeRich Kressly has a reputation beyond reputeRich Kressly has a reputation beyond reputeRich Kressly has a reputation beyond reputeRich Kressly has a reputation beyond reputeRich Kressly has a reputation beyond reputeRich Kressly has a reputation beyond reputeRich Kressly has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Are they really robots?

^ Yeah, what Jared said. It seems pretty interesting to me that wherever you visit or whomever you speak with in the vastly diverse world of the "robotics industry" you find very intelligent, invested people who tend to call their own gizmos "robots" and other people's robots "gizmos." (please go find George Carlin's bit about "stuff" on the internet if you don't know what I mean )

I remember being in a similar, and equally amusing, conversation about what "music" is when Rap was becoming more prevalent in the mainstream about 18 years ago.

It would seem to me the conversation here is more about preconceived notions and the widely held misconception that anyone, with their limited viewpoint, no matter how awesome he/she is, can fully define a rapidly evolving "industry" such as this one.

....and if this is REALLY, "...being harmful and preying on the ignorance of the average high school student," someone please explain Tina Haskins' success story (and the growing number of so many FIRST alumni who are doing incredible things in the industry today) to me.
__________________
technology, innovation, and invention without a social conscience will only allow us to destroy ourselves in more creative ways

Last edited by Rich Kressly : 09-09-2010 at 09:00 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Are these wheels available, anf if not are they ever gonna be? Elgin Clock FIRST Tech Challenge 3 11-12-2005 10:27 PM
Robots really are nuclear powered suneel112 Electrical 14 04-25-2004 12:25 PM
Are your engineers really what they seem? MissInformation Chit-Chat 11 12-18-2002 12:54 PM
M12 and Q12 -- do they really mean this? archiver General Forum 1 06-23-2002 10:45 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:47 AM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi