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Unread 10-11-2018, 10:12 AM
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Is a battery screw terminal legal?

Is this battery terminal legal?

According to rule R38 F. Terminals: Nut and bolt style
and this battery has (only) a screw terminal.
So is it FRC compatible?
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Unread 10-11-2018, 10:14 AM
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Re: Is a battery screw terminal legal?

Please post a link or pictures... also know that CD isn't official for any intents or purposes.

Likely not, but I'm not an inspector nor do I claim to be. Most batteries that I've seen for FRC use have tabs with holes in them. Screw terminals- that almost sounds like a GM--style side terminal battery?
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Unread 10-11-2018, 10:24 AM
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Re: Is a battery screw terminal legal?

The manual specifically states the connector must be "nut and bolt style."

However, one could argue that a screw terminal is just a bolt and a rigid nut...
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Unread 10-11-2018, 10:37 AM
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Re: Is a battery screw terminal legal?

I can't actually comment on the technical legality, but I can certainly say that I have seen teams using them (especially in Israel). Hopefully they are legal, or those teams have been breaking the rules for a while now. Of course the only way to know for sure is to wait for the season to start and submit a question in the Q&A. Without an answer from there, it's up to your LRI.

Edit: Seeing Jon's response, I guess I should start keeping an eye out for them
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Last edited by AriMB : 10-11-2018 at 10:39 AM.
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Unread 10-11-2018, 10:38 AM
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Re: Is a battery screw terminal legal?

You can always ask once the Q&A opens up.

However, the same wording for the battery was used in 2017, and it was asked and answered then:
Quote:
Q283 Clarification of Battery Terminal Restrictions
Q: R37-F specifies "Nut and bolt style" terminals. Are batteries with integral nuts permitted? Example:
PowerSonic PS-12180HD-M5 http://www.powersonic.com/images/pow...S12180HDM5.pdf

A: No. Batteries with integral nuts do not meet the requirement of R37 part F.
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Unread 10-15-2018, 11:56 AM
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Re: Is a battery screw terminal legal?

Wow, that battery style would be nice.
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Unread 10-15-2018, 01:31 PM
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Re: Is a battery screw terminal legal?

I'm doing my teams' (2 teams this year) pre kick off parts inventory and needs analysis to try and pre think some of the parts we're going to need.
I saw this battery posted above and wanted to see if there are any other sources other than AndyMark for 'legal' batteries. I went out to Interstate batteries to see if there was another source for the 1116 battery. Wanted to see if y'all know any more reputable and less expensive sources? I'm looking to replace at least 6-8 batteries we've collected over the years. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

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Unread 10-15-2018, 01:38 PM
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Re: Is a battery screw terminal legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilum40 View Post
I'm doing my teams' (2 teams this year) pre kick off parts inventory and needs analysis to try and pre think some of the parts we're going to need.
I saw this battery posted above and wanted to see if there are any other sources other than AndyMark for 'legal' batteries. I went out to Interstate batteries to see if there was another source for the 1116 battery. Wanted to see if y'all know any more reputable and less expensive sources? I'm looking to replace at least 6-8 batteries we've collected over the years. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Steve Miller
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Purple Vipers
Mentor-Team 7535 Purple Poison-all female FRC team!
This is taken from the game manual for Power Up. I don't know if theres anymore companies though.
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Unread 10-15-2018, 01:40 PM
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Re: Is a battery screw terminal legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pilum40 View Post
I'm doing my teams' (2 teams this year) pre kick off parts inventory and needs analysis to try and pre think some of the parts we're going to need.
I saw this battery posted above and wanted to see if there are any other sources other than AndyMark for 'legal' batteries. I went out to Interstate batteries to see if there was another source for the 1116 battery. Wanted to see if y'all know any more reputable and less expensive sources? I'm looking to replace at least 6-8 batteries we've collected over the years. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Steve Miller
Coach-Team 3355
Purple Vipers
Mentor-Team 7535 Purple Poison-all female FRC team!
548 has used the BatteryMart SLA-12V18's for the last couple years. They are a lot cheaper than AndyMark.
For 8 batteries shipped to Arlington (shipping estimated):
BatteryMart: $381.97
AndyMark: $492.54

We don't have a good way to compare them to our older batteries, but they don't seem any worse than others.
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Unread 10-15-2018, 01:44 PM
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Re: Is a battery screw terminal legal?

I've found them on the shelf at my local Batteries+, they're relatively common.
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Unread 10-16-2018, 02:10 PM
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Re: Is a battery screw terminal legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AriMB View Post
I can't actually comment on the technical legality, but I can certainly say that I have seen teams using them (especially in Israel). Hopefully they are legal, or those teams have been breaking the rules for a while now. Of course the only way to know for sure is to wait for the season to start and submit a question in the Q&A. Without an answer from there, it's up to your LRI.

Edit: Seeing Jon's response, I guess I should start keeping an eye out for them
Everyone,
These batteries are not legal and the question has come up on the Q&A for many years stating that. On occassion in Israel and some other foreign countries, these batteries were supplied under legal part numbers. If you saw one at a foreign event, it may have been allowed for a single event only with the knowledge of the event organizers and FRC HQ. The part numbers suggested in the Robot Rules does not include this style currently.
Please, always check the current year Robot Rules for specific legal parts.
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Unread 10-16-2018, 03:21 PM
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Re: Is a battery screw terminal legal?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Everyone,
These batteries are not legal and the question has come up on the Q&A for many years stating that. On occassion in Israel and some other foreign countries, these batteries were supplied under legal part numbers. If you saw one at a foreign event, it may have been allowed for a single event only with the knowledge of the event organizers and FRC HQ. The part numbers suggested in the Robot Rules does not include this style currently.
Please, always check the current year Robot Rules for specific legal parts.
Could you please elaborate as to why these should be illegal, from a technical perspective? My thinking is that when you're tightening the fastener into these blind threaded holes on the terminals, the reaction torque must come from the internal structure of the terminal itself (rather than a 2nd wrench), which could cause a break/weakening at the internal connection to the cells.
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Unread Today, 12:27 PM
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Re: Is a battery screw terminal legal?

Nate,
The robot rules have specified what I call "tab" batteries for as far back as lead acid batteries have been legal. During manufacture, the batteries have no terminals, so internally all batteries of this type are identical. There are several variants of the terminals from tab to screw to post. Each one garners a different part number. During the end of the manufacturing process, the terminals are added, and soldered in place. Then either red or black epoxy is flowed into the well around the terminal. The "tab" battery is one that is more widely available world wide and is easy to inspect. Electrically, the tab has the least amount of series resistance for amateur installers and therefore the highest current capability. Robot use is an extreme environment for these batteries whose general use is lower current applications like emergency lighting and UPS batteries.
BTW, the internal soldering operation has no real mechanical attachment. It is for this reason the inspection staff is so adamant that no one lift the batteries by the wires. Lifting causes the internal connection to crack and fail. The battery will generally test good until high currents are expected. At that point, the resistance goes so high that robot reset is unavoidable.
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