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  #46   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 10-13-2017, 09:43 AM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz View Post
Guys,
Sorry I am coming in late on this discussion but having read through the thread I can't help but think all are speaking about nearly the same interpretation but attacking it from different directions.
To be clear, there is no rule that speaks to multiple layers of fabric (changeable colors have been legal for years) but there are other sections of the bumper rules that also apply. i.e. Multiple layers should not be used to compress the pool noodles to an extent that causes the bumper cross section to vary greatly from Figure 8-5. Like wise, there should not be so much fabric to increase that dimension shown in Figure 8-6. 2017 was the first year in which the bumpers were included in the overall volume of the robot. It is unknown if that would be the case in the future. If the volume were not a consideration in the future, a multi-layer bumper may give a team an advantage. That design would be evaluated at that time for the rules that would apply at that time. Do not interpret this discussion as giving you a pass on all multi-layer designs.
So two layers of fabric are legal in the 2017 rules as long as they do not overly compress the bumpers or alter the profile of the bumper by adding excessive bulk or thickness even if they are not being used to display multiple colors?
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Unread 10-14-2017, 08:24 PM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

Is this an entire thread discussing an edge case bumper legality issue that would probably be ignored at a competition?
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Unread 10-14-2017, 08:46 PM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

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Originally Posted by EdgarAlenPoe View Post
Is this an entire thread discussing an edge case bumper legality issue that would probably be ignored at a competition?
Peak off-season CD
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Unread 10-14-2017, 11:23 PM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

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Originally Posted by AriMB View Post
Peak off-season CD
Peak? Nah, just normal.

Definitely not an edge case though with the likes of 67 doing it.
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Unread 10-15-2017, 01:30 AM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

My personal interpretation (subject to change based on 2018 rules and Q&A) is something like this:

Unless you're doing a reversible or cover-type bumper, two layers would be illegal. However, if I can't tell there are two layers without tearing the bumper apart, then chances are pretty good that I'll pass the team. If it's obvious that there are two layers, then I'd advise that I read the rule as calling that illegal, and also that it's now time to play the game called "pass the buck" and get the LRI involved for a game of LRI-a-roo just to make sure that I don't have it totally wrong. If the LRI's smart, he'll join "pass the buck" and play "CRI-a-roo" (AKA, call Al). And that's when the fun begins...


So who's going to ask the question in Q&A? Just to confuse the GDC, that should probably be done on Q&A opening day... they won't expect a bumper question until Build Week 4!
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Unread 10-16-2017, 01:48 AM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

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Originally Posted by EricH View Post
So who's going to ask the question in Q&A? Just to confuse the GDC, that should probably be done on Q&A opening day... they won't expect a bumper question until Build Week 4!
Too bad CD doesn't have a !RemindMe function.
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Unread 10-16-2017, 10:56 AM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

Quote:
Originally Posted by EricH View Post
My personal interpretation (subject to change based on 2018 rules and Q&A) is something like this:

Unless you're doing a reversible or cover-type bumper, two layers would be illegal. However, if I can't tell there are two layers without tearing the bumper apart, then chances are pretty good that I'll pass the team. If it's obvious that there are two layers, then I'd advise that I read the rule as calling that illegal, and also that it's now time to play the game called "pass the buck" and get the LRI involved for a game of LRI-a-roo just to make sure that I don't have it totally wrong. If the LRI's smart, he'll join "pass the buck" and play "CRI-a-roo" (AKA, call Al). And that's when the fun begins...


So who's going to ask the question in Q&A? Just to confuse the GDC, that should probably be done on Q&A opening day... they won't expect a bumper question until Build Week 4!
I nominate NOT marshall. I can look up the definition of two and fabric in the dictionary myself.
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Unread 10-16-2017, 11:19 AM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
I nominate NOT marshall. I can look up the definition of two and fabric in the dictionary myself.
I've been avoiding making the joke myself for fear that it might be construed as condescending again...
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Unread 10-16-2017, 12:46 PM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

The problem with Q&A is that you will get one of three answers.
  1. A sarcastic answer that really doesn't answer anything. Essentially says depends on your LRI
  2. A strict by the book answer that is almost impossible to comply with .
  3. A well thought out reasonable answer that maybe edits the rule to be understandable. Thankfully this is becoming more common

It is impossible to know which answer you will get in advance. At least in my RI training, the RI are supposed to accept team interpretations if the rules can be read that way. Mostly I rather take my chances with the LRI than with Q&A.
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Unread 10-16-2017, 12:56 PM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

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Originally Posted by FrankJ View Post
The problem with Q&A is that you will get one of three answers.
  1. A sarcastic answer that really doesn't answer anything. Essentially says depends on your LRI
  2. A strict by the book answer that is almost impossible to comply with .
  3. A well thought out reasonable answer that maybe edits the rule to be understandable. Thankfully this is becoming more common

It is impossible to know which answer you will get in advance. At least in my RI training, the RI are supposed to accept team interpretations if the rules can be read that way. Mostly I rather take my chances with the LRI than with Q&A.
Well... 1 out of 3 ain't bad.
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Unread 10-16-2017, 06:59 PM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

I hope that no one asks, for this reason. It is a roulette wheel and there have been a few answers given over the years that have made compliance difficult, impossible, or super frustrating.
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Unread 10-16-2017, 10:09 PM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

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Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
I hope that no one asks, for this reason. It is a roulette wheel and there have been a few answers given over the years that have made compliance difficult, impossible, or super frustrating.
But if we donít ask then progress isnít made... plus I need to know which dictionary to buy this year.
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Unread 10-16-2017, 10:29 PM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

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Originally Posted by marshall View Post
Well... 1 out of 3 ain't bad.
I thought you totaled 2/3 last year, on different questions. (None of which was #3.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnoble View Post
I hope that no one asks, for this reason. It is a roulette wheel and there have been a few answers given over the years that have made compliance difficult, impossible, or super frustrating.
Well, no, I don't think so. I think the question would be: We are considering using two layers of fabric on each of our two sets of bumpers (one set red, one set blue). Both layers will match the color of the set; neither is removable. RXX* seems to be ambiguous on whether we can have multiple layers if we aren't doing reversible bumpers.

If the GDC comes back with answer type 2, explain that you checked all the standard dictionaries and are still confused (marshall, that would be M-W, OED, and your favorite online dictionary that isn't one of those ). If they come back with answer type 1, you ask what guidance the LRI will be given (and send Al a PM with the question number).

And if the GDC comes back with an answer that makes compliance extra difficult, send a followup asking how they expect that ruling to be followed (and an email to frc-teams).



*Insert appropriate rule number here.


One of my absolute favorite Q&As was written back in 2011. I know who wrote it (not me). I know why it was written. And I don't have a link. Background is that welding was legal, then ruled illegal, on the minibots of that year. "Someone" wrote a very lengthy Q that basically said, how is using an allowed material illegal? Is it that you object to the method used, which you didn't bother to regulate in the first place? Care to provide specific alloys and working methods? (And there were a few other items on there, but those opened up the question.) GDC's response was basically "Uh... Right. You got us. This time."
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Unread 10-16-2017, 10:35 PM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

Of course in fairness to the Q&A people... How variations of is sticky Velcro legal? Do you have to answer before going insane.
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Unread 10-16-2017, 10:46 PM
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Re: Combining Bumper Fabrics

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Originally Posted by FrankJ View Post
Of course in fairness to the Q&A people... How variations of is sticky Velcro legal? Do you have to answer before going insane.
In fairness to the Q&A people, the folks who were asking were obviously "ask questions first, chute door later" instead of the other way around.


Yep, so many questions answered when people actually read the previous questions.

Which reminds me:
Q&A Standard Response #4:
We believe that the answer(s) to QXX, QYY, and QZZ, combined with Rule ABC, are sufficient to answer this question. If they are not, please rephrase and resubmit.
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