OCCRA
Go to Post Guys, Can we agree that "we used it in the past" is not a response. Thanks. - Al Skierkiewicz [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 11:12 AM
Walter Deitzler's Avatar
Walter Deitzler Walter Deitzler is offline
UAH Class of 2019
FRC #3397 (Robolions)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: University City, MO
Posts: 775
Walter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond repute
Possible Strategy?

So we all know that touching the opponents bridge during the match is a 9 point penalty, and we also know that balls scored in autonomous are worth 3 extra points.

What if you were to take the balls from the opponent's bridge in autonomous (-9 points) then score them in the top hoop (+12). You would have a 3 point gain, and the opposing team would not have the bridge balls until their inbounder inbounded them.

You could also use this strategy for getting balls off of your bridge to gain an additional 12 points, but if you have 3 robots on an alliance, all score both of their balls (+36 points) then one gets the middle bridge (assuming two are on it, +12) then one gets their alliance bridge (+12) then one gets the other alliance bridge (+3) you have scored 63 points in the first 15 seconds of the game.

While none of the side bridges have been scored in hybrid before, I think that some of the teams that we will be seeing at Championships will be able to pull it off. Get the right robots on an alliance, and you would have the best hybrid alliance in the game.
__________________

(Hanging out with my buddies at 610)
Robotics, it's not just a club, it's a career.
FLL Referee (2012-Present)

2014 Gateway Robotics Challenge winners (With 2481 and 1985)
2011 St. Louis Regional Winners (With 1985 and 3284)
2010 Highest Rookie Seed
I am the guy in the golden hat, say "Hi!" to me at WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 11:20 AM
Sean Raia's Avatar
Sean Raia Sean Raia is offline
Webapp Dev & Security Analyst
no team (Anonymous)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 467
Sean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Possible Strategy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LedLover96 View Post
So we all know that touching the opponents bridge during the match is a 9 point penalty, and we also know that balls scored in autonomous are worth 3 extra points.

What if you were to take the balls from the opponent's bridge in autonomous (-9 points) then score them in the top hoop (+12). You would have a 3 point gain, and the opposing team would not have the bridge balls until their inbounder inbounded them.

You could also use this strategy for getting balls off of your bridge to gain an additional 12 points, but if you have 3 robots on an alliance, all score both of their balls (+36 points) then one gets the middle bridge (assuming two are on it, +12) then one gets their alliance bridge (+12) then one gets the other alliance bridge (+3) you have scored 63 points in the first 15 seconds of the game.

While none of the side bridges have been scored in hybrid before, I think that some of the teams that we will be seeing at Championships will be able to pull it off. Get the right robots on an alliance, and you would have the best hybrid alliance in the game.
I think this sounds like a great idea, but you wont see it happen.
Including the breaking of a rule into part of your alliances strategy doesnt show very good sportsmanship.
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 11:31 AM
ElJeffe3255's Avatar
ElJeffe3255 ElJeffe3255 is offline
Registered User
AKA: El Jeffe
FRC #3255 (SuperNURDS)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Rookie Year: 2011
Location: Escondido, CA
Posts: 14
ElJeffe3255 is an unknown quantity at this point
In addition, I believe you are penalized EACH time you touch the bridge. Since the bridge is bouncing around, you come in contact with it multiple times racking up a lot of penalty points. Didn't this happen in one of the events when a team was inadvertently trying to get on the wrong bridge? I'm thinking it was with 1717.
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 11:32 AM
Walter Deitzler's Avatar
Walter Deitzler Walter Deitzler is offline
UAH Class of 2019
FRC #3397 (Robolions)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: University City, MO
Posts: 775
Walter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond reputeWalter Deitzler has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Possible Strategy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Raia View Post
I think this sounds like a great idea, but you wont see it happen.
Including the breaking of a rule into part of your alliances strategy doesnt show very good sportsmanship.
You do have a good point there, about the sportsmanship.

But what about your own alliance bridge? Why don't we see any robots get those balls? I don't think it would be too hard to do.
__________________

(Hanging out with my buddies at 610)
Robotics, it's not just a club, it's a career.
FLL Referee (2012-Present)

2014 Gateway Robotics Challenge winners (With 2481 and 1985)
2011 St. Louis Regional Winners (With 1985 and 3284)
2010 Highest Rookie Seed
I am the guy in the golden hat, say "Hi!" to me at WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 11:33 AM
Sean Raia's Avatar
Sean Raia Sean Raia is offline
Webapp Dev & Security Analyst
no team (Anonymous)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 467
Sean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Possible Strategy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LedLover96 View Post
You do have a good point there, about the sportsmanship.

But what about your own alliance bridge? Why don't we see any robots get those balls? I don't think it would be too hard to do.
I have no doubt that will happen, i honestly thought it already had.
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 11:39 AM
BrendanB BrendanB is offline
Registered User
AKA: Brendan Browne
FRC #1058 (PVC Pirates)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Londonderry, NH
Posts: 3,201
BrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond reputeBrendanB has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Possible Strategy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LedLover96 View Post
You do have a good point there, about the sportsmanship.

But what about your own alliance bridge? Why don't we see any robots get those balls? I don't think it would be too hard to do.
But the balls on your bridge are already yours will the co-op balls are anybodys in the match, the first to get them gets a small edge in the match to start and if you can score those in autonomous you have a larger edge. Another factor is time, the co-op bridge is a straight shot while the alliance bridge is awkwardly off to the side which requires extra turns and manuevers which eat up seconds. Some robots who go for the balls on the co-op bridge in hybrid barely have enough time to get them and then re-line up.
__________________
1519 Mechanical M.A.Y.H.E.M. 2008 - 2010
3467 Windham Windup 2011 - 2015
1058 PVC Pirates 2016 - xxxx

Member of the New England FRC community? Join the FRC New England Alliance Facebook Group
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 11:48 AM
Austin2046's Avatar
Austin2046 Austin2046 is offline
Design, Strategy & Scouting Mentor
FRC #2046 (Bear Metal)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Maple Valley, WA
Posts: 196
Austin2046 has a spectacular aura aboutAustin2046 has a spectacular aura about
Re: Possible Strategy?

you're alliance could get up to 72 pts not 63... it's just that the penalty points are added to the opponents score, not taken from yours.

we've been trying our hand at the alliance bridge balls and it's alot harder than you think. we've had the 4 ball auto from the co-op bridge for some time and there aren't many other teams that can do it, so we've had no problems. but we're on Archimedes with 67 who can also do it, and i'm sure there's prolly a few others... and since we'd rather play with them then against them we've tried to get the alliance bridge auto working... i'm not sure if we have yet tho... i would guess not, but we have been working on some other auto modes as well. we'll just see how it plays out at champs.
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 11:55 AM
LeelandS's Avatar
LeelandS LeelandS is offline
Robots don't quit, and neither do I
AKA: Leeland
FRC #1405 (Finney Falcons)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Webster, NY
Posts: 567
LeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Possible Strategy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Raia View Post
I think this sounds like a great idea, but you wont see it happen.
Including the breaking of a rule into part of your alliances strategy doesnt show very good sportsmanship.
I wouldn't say it's bad sportsmanship, it's just really smart playing. Penalties are part of the game, and if an alliance feels that they can earn more points by taking those penalties, then what's to be done? Yeah, it's not a 'nice' move, but the C in FRC stands for competition, and that means you play the best you can to win.

For example, at the 2011 IRI, our alliance (1126, 233, 2016) went up against the number 1 alliance (1114, 987, 67). They employed a tactic to counter us pushing tubes into our lanes to protect them, by taking the 3 point penalty to go into the lane and get them. Because the 3 point penatly paled in comparision to the 18 point unaided top row logo, the cost of the penalty was worth the extra tubes. Were we happy about it? Of course not. But that's because they mopped the floor with us doing that. It was a brilliant tactical move and fully justified in the scope of the game.

There are differences between smart play and cheap moves. I don't think stealing balls off the alliance bridge is a cheap move. If nothing else, the offending alliance is taking a 9 point hit for it. If they want to risk taking that, let them do it. It's not like they're taking the balls and getting away scot free.
__________________
My heart will forever lie with SparX
1126: 2008 - 2011; Where it All Began.
1405: 2013 - Present; Flying High.

Work hard, play hard. And maybe someday...
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 12:21 PM
JB987 JB987 is offline
Registered User
AKA: Joe Barry
FRC #0987 (HIGH ROLLERS)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: May 2006
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: LAS VEGAS
Posts: 1,210
JB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond reputeJB987 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Possible Strategy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LedLover96 View Post
You do have a good point there, about the sportsmanship.

But what about your own alliance bridge? Why don't we see any robots get those balls? I don't think it would be too hard to do.
987 has an alliance bridge hybrid and has used it...expect to see it even more later this week
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 12:23 PM
Jon Stratis's Avatar
Jon Stratis Jon Stratis is offline
Mentor, LRI, MN RPC
FRC #2177 (The Robettes)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,411
Jon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond reputeJon Stratis has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Possible Strategy?

Consider the difficulties involved. First, you have to be able to shoot your two balls, then get to the bridge and tip it reliably. Then you have to gather the balls as they come down (something even the best gatherer's I've seen can't do 100%), then you have to line up and shoot at the basket, something that only 2 teams I've seen could do 100% in autonomous mode when when could perfectly line up their robot in the key. All in 15 seconds.

I think the risk of losing points is going to keep teams from trying this with their opponents bridge... but I can certainly see teams trying it with their own bridge - worst case the balls just end up on their side.
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 12:44 PM
loyal loyal is offline
Jack of all trades master of none
AKA: Loyal
FRC #0716
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: norfolk ct
Posts: 116
loyal is a name known to allloyal is a name known to allloyal is a name known to allloyal is a name known to allloyal is a name known to allloyal is a name known to all
Re: Possible Strategy?

I can tell you right now 4055 has done alliance bridge and co-op bridge in autonomous. Look it up. We did it a lot in Hartford and will do it again at the championships. Our new autonomous will be to reverse our conveyer and push the two balls we have directly into our alliance best shooter and hope to see a quick 12 points. We also have a stinger check us out.
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 12:56 PM
Sean Raia's Avatar
Sean Raia Sean Raia is offline
Webapp Dev & Security Analyst
no team (Anonymous)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: NY
Posts: 467
Sean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond reputeSean Raia has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Possible Strategy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeelandS View Post
I wouldn't say it's bad sportsmanship, it's just really smart playing. Penalties are part of the game, and if an alliance feels that they can earn more points by taking those penalties, then what's to be done? Yeah, it's not a 'nice' move, but the C in FRC stands for competition, and that means you play the best you can to win.

For example, at the 2011 IRI, our alliance (1126, 233, 2016) went up against the number 1 alliance (1114, 987, 67). They employed a tactic to counter us pushing tubes into our lanes to protect them, by taking the 3 point penalty to go into the lane and get them. Because the 3 point penatly paled in comparision to the 18 point unaided top row logo, the cost of the penalty was worth the extra tubes. Were we happy about it? Of course not. But that's because they mopped the floor with us doing that. It was a brilliant tactical move and fully justified in the scope of the game.

There are differences between smart play and cheap moves. I don't think stealing balls off the alliance bridge is a cheap move. If nothing else, the offending alliance is taking a 9 point hit for it. If they want to risk taking that, let them do it. It's not like they're taking the balls and getting away scot free.
As good of a strategy as it is... it IS against the rules. And youre not doing it by accident, you are intentionally aiming to do it. I define intentionally breaking the rules to get an advantage as bad sportsmanship... As smart as it may be strategicaly.
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 01:19 PM
Mullen's Avatar
Mullen Mullen is offline
Registered User
no team
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: earth
Posts: 142
Mullen is a glorious beacon of lightMullen is a glorious beacon of lightMullen is a glorious beacon of lightMullen is a glorious beacon of lightMullen is a glorious beacon of lightMullen is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Possible Strategy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Austin2046 View Post
. but we're on Archimedes with 67 who can also do it, and i'm sure there's prolly a few others... and since we'd rather play with them then against them we've tried to get the alliance bridge auto working... i'm not sure if we have yet tho...
67 already has the ability to go for the Alliance bridge. They were playing around with it at MSC during the practice rounds incase they paired up with another robot that also went for the Co-op bridge. I don't think they used it in a real match, but they do have the option.
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 01:35 PM
Austin2046's Avatar
Austin2046 Austin2046 is offline
Design, Strategy & Scouting Mentor
FRC #2046 (Bear Metal)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Maple Valley, WA
Posts: 196
Austin2046 has a spectacular aura aboutAustin2046 has a spectacular aura about
Re: Possible Strategy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mullen View Post
67 already has the ability to go for the Alliance bridge. They were playing around with it at MSC during the practice rounds incase they paired up with another robot that also went for the Co-op bridge. I don't think they used it in a real match, but they do have the option.
I figured they were probably working on it too, but i didn't know if they had it yet. hopefully we get paired with them one round (if not in elims ) and we can try to get a 60 point hybrid... that would be amazing...
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-24-2012, 04:09 PM
LeelandS's Avatar
LeelandS LeelandS is offline
Robots don't quit, and neither do I
AKA: Leeland
FRC #1405 (Finney Falcons)
Team Role: Tactician
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Webster, NY
Posts: 567
LeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond reputeLeelandS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Possible Strategy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Raia View Post
As good of a strategy as it is... it IS against the rules. And youre not doing it by accident, you are intentionally aiming to do it. I define intentionally breaking the rules to get an advantage as bad sportsmanship... As smart as it may be strategicaly.
I understand your reasoning behind that, and I agree it's not the most wholesome tactic, and I definitely understand a lot of people won't like it, but the rules are there to provide guidelines and consequences for the teams involved in a match. Now, breaking a rule to maliciously and ruthlessly undermine your opponents is one thing. If you're trying to flip them over on a bridge or damage then, THAT is bad sportsmanship because of the nature of the act. That's not a doubt.

But the consequences for stealing the opponent's balls are clearly defined, and you're not deliberatly trying to pulverize your opponent. It's a tactical advantage. If a team wants to take the penalty to do it, it's their choice. Yeah, it's not ideal, of course it's not an 'honorable play', because it does violate the rules. But to call it 'bad sportsmanship' I think think is incorrect. They're doing it in the name of the game, but not to an extreme point that makes you shake your head at the team.

I understand what you mean, they would be breaking the rules and that makes the play rather questionable in merit, but it is a plausible tactic and you can't question it's a smart play. I'm not saying I'd promote it or encourage it, but I wouldn't look down on a time who did this.
__________________
My heart will forever lie with SparX
1126: 2008 - 2011; Where it All Began.
1405: 2013 - Present; Flying High.

Work hard, play hard. And maybe someday...
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:27 AM.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi