[DFTF] The Classic Blunder...

[tsaksa]

Originally Posted by frasnow

I have a question for all the people talking about the 30 pounds and how great it is. How can a robot truly be competitive if the electrical team doesn’t have time to test their wiring, the software team doesn’t have time to test autonomous routines, and the drivers don’t have time to practice? I’ve seen this type of thing occur many times at work, and it always delays projects. Mechanical engineers sometimes think the deadline for the project is their deadline and don’t leave any time for integration and debug.

This is my first FIRST build season, but from what I have seen your description is right on the mark. Here is how the build season seemed to run for our team from my perspective as a NUBE.

1. The mechanical team says they are "on track" to deliver the complete mechanical system on time even as they load a mill and three phase generator into the van to finish machining some key parts on the drive to our scrimmage.

2. The electrical team is allowed access to robot for final wiring and integration once the robot is placed on the field. At that point they wrap sensors and switches in freshly chewed gum and throw them at the robot from the sidelines hoping that some of them stick.

3. Using binoculars and what they can over hear from the crowd as to where the sensors landed, the programming team develops a strategy for how to code the software and deploys it over the wireless link just prior to the start of each match.

4. The drive team plays with the controls to see what the robot does when they move each control. This process is greatly aided in the team numbers were painted on the bumpers so that they can recognize our robot.

5. After each match the pit crew gathers up the parts from the field and finds a new and interesting way to assemble them.

This might be a slight exaggeration, but this was my first year, so their may have been slightly more order to the process than what I saw.

[MarcD79]

@ Doug G; Doug brings up a good point on making sure all nut, bolts & screws, wires, as well as rivets, chains, lexan & ANY other components attached to your robot. I run the field at Suffield Shakedown & am amazed at how much loose material is picked off the field after every match. Most teams don't even realize they are missing anything. Yesterday a team lost a whole 4" c-clamp. I instructed nobody to pick it up. Before the robots were removed from the field I made an announcement that there was a large part on the field & that it should be removed. It was removed by the team in question.
You always hear from teams, Oh, it fits in there really tight, it won't move. Trust me it will.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Fellow Rookie,

We just got our powder coated parts back from the paint shop today, and we have all weekend to build. We do have a practice robot mostly finished, but we too have a bunch of work to do.

Keep in mind that you can walk in to the event with 30 pounds of custom parts.

Have a great weekend,
Andy

Hehe, it is sort of a relief knowing that the rookie teams from the likes of Andy Baker, Aren Hill, and Dr. Joe all still have a bunch of work to do.

Wish we were close to being as far as you are Andy. As for Aren's bot - I can't even imagine us being close to where we are if we were building what he made, I think right now we're pretty close to where Dr. Joe is.

That said, Dr. Joe, if you guys need anything machined or fabricated let some of the guys in the area know (I'm sure Brandon Holley would be willing to help out).

[Doug G]

This being my 12 year of FRC, I've noticed the competition change in little ways here and there, but the withholding allowance has been one of the most major changes in FRC these past 5 years. The days of crating your robot by Monday night, so that FedEx could pick it up at some point Tuesday morning - are gone. (I almost miss those days) Now we can (and many teams do) build 3/4 of a robot in 6 weeks and then spend another 3-4 weeks building/perfecting the other 1/4 (often some very important component).

So as others have already mentioned, use the 30 lb withholding to your advantage and I'll be at the door checking your weight (at least in spirit).

PS: Everyone else - if you bring your bumpers into the competition unbagged, it counts towards your witholding allowance!!

Other blunders to watch out for....
1) Loose chain may work for a little while, but it will fall off at the worst possible time. Find ways to properly align and tension chain.
2) Loose electrical connections may work for a little while, but will work loose at the worst possible time. Find ways to secure, crimp, and attach wiring.
3) Fasteners like screws, bolts, and nuts MUST be locked down using locknuts, threadlock, lock washers, etc. This year with many fast spinning wheels to shoot balls, things will tend to work themselves loose!

[Kevin Sevcik]

The withholding allowance is definitely a possibility for you to get some extra functionality on the robot. Just don't succumb to the follow-on to your Classic Blunder, building all practice day and missing inspection and practice. You know how important driving practice on a real field is, especially for your rookie drivers. You already made the mistake of designing a robot your rookies couldn't finish in 45 days. Don't double down and design and build a secondary system that your rookies can't install, wire, and program in 4-6 hours. I'd vote for a simple ball collection and transport system. Even better if you can work out your mount-points beforehand and get those installed on your chassis before you bag it.


PS. We've all been there. Sometimes even after you've been working with the same team for a decade. Just make a note to expand your capabilities in the off-season and retract your expectations slightly next year.

[jvriezen]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Even better if you can work out your mount-points beforehand and get those installed on your chassis before you bag it.

Just be sure to take lots of close up pictures and measurements (unless everything is already in cad) before you bag it up, so that you can have a plan ready to go for attaching your 30 lbs of magic components. We also brought our entire minibot deployment last year -- the MB was a key element to our success at the regional.

[IKE]

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...58&postcount=3

The OCCRA kids built this bot this past fall. It is a very simple collecing and scoring mechanism that had a high pivot and a set of balls that sucked up and spit them back out in goals up to 60 inches tall. It was a very effective scorer.

Also, if your chassis is as described, it should be good for at least 10 points a match and maybe more. There is a fairly simple method to score 8 points every match as long as your robot is not too tall. 8+10 will win most matches, and I would almost garauntee a spot in elims (though probably not the finals).

[Ekcrbe]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Joe,
What makes you think we're finished building?...

I think this game was very easy to over-analyze, and many teams (including us) did. I envision lots of teams adding 29 lbs of stuff at their first competition that they ran out of time to build before Tuesday.

[Kevin Sevcik]

The only problem with the 30-lbs witholding limit is that I haven't figured out how to package the 30-lbs of programming and calibration our robot really needs to be truly competitive....

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

The only problem with the 30-lbs witholding limit is that I haven't figured out how to package the 30-lbs of programming and calibration our robot really needs to be truly competitive....

That's why you figure out a way to build a practice bot. You would be amazed what you can keep of the comp bot with 30 lbs to use for practicing until you have to go to an event.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson

That's why you figure out a way to build a practice bot. You would be amazed what you can keep of the comp bot with 30 lbs to use for practicing until you have to go to an event.

Pretty sure he was kidding...

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by wireties

Pretty sure he was kidding...

I know. I was just using Kevin's post to highlight a workaround people may not have thought of.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Believe me, I would love to have a practice bot, but I've yet to figure out a way for us to build one. Practice bots are nice in theory, but we've spent pretty much all of our $4000 robot budget already, and all of the time we had available to build at our shop. At this point of every season, we're pretty much completely tapped on budget and build time and simply don't have the resources to put a practice bot together. And yes, a practice bot will be just about as expensive as our full robot to be any good. We've got 10 Jags, 6 pneumatic wheels, a CIM-sim, 3 BB P60 transmissions, an entire kit chassis, two 6" performance wheels, poly cord, etc. etc. That adds up to a heck of a lot of money we don't have available for a practice bot.

[MrForbes]

I wish we had a good excuse for not having a practice bot, besides "we're lazy"....

I think we're already a few days past "burn out". At least our one robot does most of what it is supposed to do.

[Greg Leighton]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

We've got weight for it. We've got space for it. We even have a reasonable concept or two we've sketched on various napkins over the last few weeks. What we don't have is TIME.

Joe J.

Many have said that you should use your 30lb allowance to build your concept, I tend to agree. As to what you build, this time make sure it's something you can build with the time you have. Do what you can and make sure you have your priorities in order (i.e. make sure your ball pickup will work before you make a shooter, can't shoot balls you can't collect).

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Believe me, I would love to have a practice bot, but I've yet to figure out a way for us to build one. Practice bots are nice in theory, but we've spent pretty much all of our $4000 robot budget already, and all of the time we had available to build at our shop. At this point of every season, we're pretty much completely tapped on budget and build time and simply don't have the resources to put a practice bot together. And yes, a practice bot will be just about as expensive as our full robot to be any good. We've got 10 Jags, 6 pneumatic wheels, a CIM-sim, 3 BB P60 transmissions, an entire kit chassis, two 6" performance wheels, poly cord, etc. etc. That adds up to a heck of a lot of money we don't have available for a practice bot.

I've seen the practice bot debated up and down CD, I tend to get the feeling people are considering it to be a complete replica of your competition robot when it doesn't have to be that close for it to help your team out. During any down time during the season, like when you're waiting for parts to be machined, you can be piecing together a practice bot from spare parts or old torn down bots you have. I can see just a chassis being valuable for practice or in some situations, autonomous programming. None of 2337's practice bots have been exactly like the comp bot, but they've made good use of them for programming and a little bit of drive practice.