[DFTF] The Classic Blunder...

[frasnow]

I have a question for all the people talking about the 30 pounds and how great it is. How can a robot truly be competitive if the electrical team doesn’t have time to test their wiring, the software team doesn’t have time to test autonomous routines, and the drivers don’t have time to practice? I’ve seen this type of thing occur many times at work, and it always delays projects. Mechanical engineers sometimes think the deadline for the project is their deadline and don’t leave any time for integration and debug.

Say you have a hypothetical team with very few resources, so they can only go to one regional and they can’t afford to build two robots. Let’s say the mechanical part of the team decides the shooter doesn’t need to be completed prior to bag-and-tag. They build a prototype shooter, but they never put it on a robot. The plan is to work on the shooter for a few weeks and attach it at the regional. It won’t go onto a robot until practice day, and the team will miss much of the practice session working on the build.

System integration is the hardest part of engineering. In the real world the game balls have different densities, so your precisely controlled mechanical system is not so precise. In the real world things rarely work the first time and you have to study the problem to decide if it is mechanical, electrical, or software. This is why teams should be doing system integration throughout the season. Don’t wait until the end to test the system or you may quickly run out of time.

I don’t believe a team with low resources can decide to just finish 30 pounds of the robot after bag-and-tag and truly be successful (OK, a low percentage will). These types of teams need to finish early giving the electrical team time to work out wiring issues, the software team time to test code and write autonomous modes, and the entire team time to make an objective decision about the drivers. You can build the most perfect mechanical system in the world, but without electronics, software, and drivers it will just sit there. Yes, we couldn't do it without the mechanical team either.

Remember there are 3 robots on every alliance. Many alliances will likely pick one defender/feeder robot, and many will look for a good balancer. You don’t have to have a way to score balls. Make a basic feeder before bag-and-tag. Give your drivers plenty of time to practice. If you show yourself to be a great defender that doesn’t get penalties at the regional, you will likely get picked.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by frasnow

I have a question for all the people talking about the 30 pounds and how great it is. How can a robot truly be competitive if the electrical team doesn’t have time to test their wiring, the software team doesn’t have time to test autonomous routines, and the drivers don’t have time to practice? I’ve seen this type of thing occur many times at work, and it always delays projects. Mechanical engineers sometimes think the deadline for the project is their deadline and don’t leave any time for integration and debug.

I don't think anyone here is advising this as a primary strategy. It is a backup when in desperate straits and running out of time.

[frasnow]

Originally Posted by wireties

I don't think anyone here is advising this as a primary strategy. It is a backup when in desperate straits and running out of time.

Then why not take the Apollo 13 approach? "Let's look at this thing from a... um, from a standpoint of status. What do we got on the spacecraft that's good?" Find a strategy that will work for the robot you have.

Originally Posted by wireties

fix the shooter and bring it to the regional. You'll sacrifice most of Thursday but it is better than nothing.

Sacrificing the practice time on Thursday for a high risk addition is rarely going to work in the scenario I described. There are three robots on every alliance.

[Akash Rastogi]

Originally Posted by Andy Baker

Fellow Rookie,

We just got our powder coated parts back from the paint shop today, and we have all weekend to build. We do have a practice robot mostly finished, but we too have a bunch of work to do.

Keep in mind that you can walk in to the event with 30 pounds of custom parts.

Have a great weekend,
Andy

Hehe, it is sort of a relief knowing that the rookie teams from the likes of Andy Baker, Aren Hill, and Dr. Joe all still have a bunch of work to do.

Wish we were close to being as far as you are Andy. As for Aren's bot - I can't even imagine us being close to where we are if we were building what he made, I think right now we're pretty close to where Dr. Joe is.

That said, Dr. Joe, if you guys need anything machined or fabricated let some of the guys in the area know (I'm sure Brandon Holley would be willing to help out).

[Basel A]

Originally Posted by frasnow

Then why not take the Apollo 13 approach? "Let's look at this thing from a... um, from a standpoint of status. What do we got on the spacecraft that's good?" Find a strategy that will work for the robot you have.

Let's say there's 3 potential subsystems, a drivetrain and two scoring mechanisms. The drivetrain and one scoring mechanism are completed. Are you suggesting that they do not work on a second scoring mechanism? I'm of the opinion that it couldn't hurt and if it doesn't work at the competition, as you've suggested is very likely, they can just take it off. Yes, they may sacrifice practice time, but if the addition does work, it could double their point output. A team that expects to win in qualification can't rely on playing defence because they will have matches paired with robots that can't score.

Yes, it is a high-risk situation. But it's also high-reward and it seems most people in this thread support taking the chance.

[Daniel_LaFleur]

Originally Posted by Joe Johnson

This is part of a series of posts called Drinking From The Firehose on getting Dr Joe back up to speed on All Things FIRST.



Today's topic:
The Classic Blunder...

No, I didn't get involved in a land war in Asia. Nor did I go against a Sicilian when Death was on the line. No, my blunder was even more classic:

I designed a robot that SOME team could finish in less than 45 days, just not MY team.

As the picture above implies, I have been trying to make up for it by working myself to death for the last 3+ weeks, thinking I could set things aright by din of effort.

It has worked to some degree. Our chassis was looking awesome when I turned out the lights in The Box* this morning and headed to my day job. With more hard work between now and Tuesday Midnight, we will have a pretty amazing chassis, one that no rookie team has any business building: We'll cross the barrier with ease, we should be able to balance a Box of Rock on the Coopertition Bridge, we may even be able to help pull off a 3 robot balance after lunch on Saturday. It has other features as well that I won't go into (hint: we've named it, The Rook)... ...this sounds like a list of positives, but actually it works equally well as a list of negatives. You see... ... I am out of gas, we're almost out of time, and we've got nothing to handle balls... ...at all.

We've got weight for it. We've got space for it. We even have a reasonable concept or two we've sketched on various napkins over the last few weeks. What we don't have is TIME.

I can hear myself saying the words to my Rookies:

"It doesn't matter what Cheesy Poofs can build in 45 days, or Thunder Chickens, or Swamp Thing, or Miss Daisy, or WildStang, or CHAOS, or Beatty, or Buzz, or Pink, or ANYONE ELSE can build in 45 days...

...it only matters what WE can build... ...in 45 days... ...because that is the only option available to us."

I said it. I believed it. I meant it. I just didn't do it...

and there are only 106 hours left...

Joe J.

* Where else would you expect a team named Schrodinger's Cat to work?

Dr Joe,

Don't worry, we're all almost out of gas.

That said, it seems (from your post) that it's time you changed tactics from the engineer to the manager. Prioritize what needs to get done and what can be done after shipdate. Focus your team on only those things that absolutely need to get done and do them. Once shipdate passes prioritize what will go into your 30 LB withholding and then focus your team on that.

Don't get discouraged ... we've all been there.

All I got to say is, it's too bad you are not coming to GSR. I'd love to meet you as you are one of the people who has truely inspired me.

[MrForbes]

Somehow we dodged the Classic Blunder this year...and for the first time we're going to a scrimmage! Hopefully the problems we find with the robot won't keep us up too late for the next 3 days

[frasnow]

Originally Posted by Basel A

Let's say there's 3 potential subsystems, a drivetrain and two scoring mechanisms. The drivetrain and one scoring mechanism are completed. Are you suggesting that they do not work on a second scoring mechanism? I'm of the opinion that it couldn't hurt and if it doesn't work at the competition, as you've suggested is very likely, they can just take it off. Yes, they may sacrifice practice time, but if the addition does work, it could double their point output. A team that expects to win in qualification can't rely on playing defence because they will have matches paired with robots that can't score.

Yes, it is a high-risk situation. But it's also high-reward and it seems most people in this thread support taking the chance.

Yes I am suggesting the team use what they know will work. Having a robust robot with well practiced drivers is far better than a half working robot with unpracticed drivers. Robustness is vital. Most teams will mark a team down on their scouting sheet for breaking repeatedly on the field. I'm saying a team doesn't have to expect to do well in the qualification rounds to do well at a regional. Our third pick for eliminations at the 2010 Autodesk Oregon Regional was ranked 55th after the qualification rounds. During eliminations they never scored a point, but they played some monster defense. We couldn't have won the regional without them.

[Billfred]

If it helps, we're a four-year veteran team with two blue banners hanging in the shop...and we haven't shot a ball yet successfully. You're not alone, Dr. Joe!

[Nemo]

Originally Posted by Aren_Hill

If we're both at champs you should come check out what we're running in that regard, its nuts

He is not kidding.

[MarcD79]

@ Doug G; Doug brings up a good point on making sure all nut, bolts & screws, wires, as well as rivets, chains, lexan & ANY other components attached to your robot. I run the field at Suffield Shakedown & am amazed at how much loose material is picked off the field after every match. Most teams don't even realize they are missing anything. Yesterday a team lost a whole 4" c-clamp. I instructed nobody to pick it up. Before the robots were removed from the field I made an announcement that there was a large part on the field & that it should be removed. It was removed by the team in question.
You always hear from teams, Oh, it fits in there really tight, it won't move. Trust me it will.

[Ekcrbe]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

Joe,
What makes you think we're finished building?...

I think this game was very easy to over-analyze, and many teams (including us) did. I envision lots of teams adding 29 lbs of stuff at their first competition that they ran out of time to build before Tuesday.

[Kevin Sevcik]

The only problem with the 30-lbs witholding limit is that I haven't figured out how to package the 30-lbs of programming and calibration our robot really needs to be truly competitive....

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

The only problem with the 30-lbs witholding limit is that I haven't figured out how to package the 30-lbs of programming and calibration our robot really needs to be truly competitive....

That's why you figure out a way to build a practice bot. You would be amazed what you can keep of the comp bot with 30 lbs to use for practicing until you have to go to an event.

[wireties]

Originally Posted by Peter Matteson

That's why you figure out a way to build a practice bot. You would be amazed what you can keep of the comp bot with 30 lbs to use for practicing until you have to go to an event.

Pretty sure he was kidding...