Dean's List Winner

[Nathan Streeter]

I think the student(s) that have had the biggest impact on the team (have lead the most, helped out the most, inspired the most, grown the most etc.) should always be the ones nominated for the award.

I can understand the reasoning behind giving preference to a junior over a senior... To a junior being a Dean's List Nominee, Finalist or Winner is something they can put on their college apps... To a senior the award won't have as much "use" - for summer internships it'd probably be meaningful, but come time for sending out resumes for jobs after college it won't have the same weight. As much as that "usefulness" exists, I can't help but feel that a team's superstar(s) have to be the ones nominated, regardless of other factors...

For a senior, this is their last chance. Odds are good that since they're a team's superstar they've had a growing role over the years - they were probably a great leader and inspiration in their junior year... maybe they were nominated and perhaps were a finalist and/or winner. Since they have such a love for FIRST, they're probably even more involved this year than last year (their junior year)! So nominate them again - maybe they'll have grown enough to be a winner this year!

Since the award is now in its third year, there's really no excuse to base the nomination indiscriminately off of age. If your team's superstar is a junior or senior, nominate them... even if they're a sophomore or freshman, I'd nominate them (although I honestly would be surprised if many teams exist where their two superstars are sophomores or freshmen). I really don't think preference should be given to juniors or seniors.

Nathan

P.S. FIRST's decision to give preference to juniors in the judging frustrates me... Perhaps I'm just being cynical, but I think part of their reasoning is so that a winning student's positive image feeds back to them... colleges seeing that these fine students are associated with FIRST adds to FIRST's reputation also. If they just wanted juniors to have the benefit of throwing it on their college app, they'd simply point out that juniors have that added use of the award. I don't think FIRST needs to be casting that doubt on whether the award winners are truly the most qualified...

[ghostmachine360]

Originally Posted by Nathan Streeter

I think the student(s) that have had the biggest impact on the team (have lead the most, helped out the most, inspired the most, grown the most etc.) should always be the ones nominated for the award.

I can understand the reasoning behind giving preference to a junior over a senior... To a junior being a Dean's List Nominee, Finalist or Winner is something they can put on their college apps... To a senior the award won't have as much "use" - for summer internships it'd probably be meaningful, but come time for sending out resumes for jobs after college it won't have the same weight. As much as that "usefulness" exists, I can't help but feel that a team's superstar(s) have to be the ones nominated, regardless of other factors...

For a senior, this is their last chance. Odds are good that since they're a team's superstar they've had a growing role over the years - they were probably a great leader and inspiration in their junior year... maybe they were nominated and perhaps were a finalist and/or winner. Since they have such a love for FIRST, they're probably even more involved this year than last year (their junior year)! So nominate them again - maybe they'll have grown enough to be a winner this year!

Since the award is now in its third year, there's really no excuse to base the nomination indiscriminately off of age. If your team's superstar is a junior or senior, nominate them... even if they're a sophomore or freshman, I'd nominate them (although I honestly would be surprised if many teams exist where their two superstars are sophomores or freshmen). I really don't think preference should be given to juniors or seniors.

Nathan

P.S. FIRST's decision to give preference to juniors in the judging frustrates me... Perhaps I'm just being cynical, but I think part of their reasoning is so that a winning student's positive image feeds back to them... colleges seeing that these fine students are associated with FIRST adds to FIRST's reputation also. If they just wanted juniors to have the benefit of throwing it on their college app, they'd simply point out that juniors have that added use of the award. I don't think FIRST needs to be casting that doubt on whether the award winners are truly the most qualified...

I agree with the frustration over the age level. I know several seniors across many teams that have been overlooked as candidates because of the mention of preference towards juniors. I can't help feeling this will encourage teams to only choose their juniors on the team that may not necessarily have those key FIRST ideals that some seniors have developed, cultivated and exhibit.

[Dancin103]

Originally Posted by Wing

I may be biased as a senior, but I don't personally agree with nominating juniors over seniors, unless the Junior has represented the award more than a Senior has. Class should not have anything to do with the award, the award should celebrate those who deserve to be celebrated, regardless of class. I can understand why juniors should be nominated, but some seniors deserve the award as well.

I agree with you 100%. It should be about the student that represents the ideals of FIRST the best, and the student that continues to spread the message of FIRST through out the FIRST community and through out their own team's community. It should not matter what class they are in, but what they do for this organization and to what extents they go too.

Just my 2 cents.

Cass

[pfreivald]

I'm just happy they clarified it either way.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

I'm just happy they clarified it either way.

Clarified what ?

One the Dean's List awards document on the FIRST website there is a discussion page one about juniors/seniors and university admissions.

On the bottom of page two is the "Criteria for selection" which has nothing really to do with university admissions or how that relates to student success at the university.

In many, but not all, in many cases the senior year is where the student really stands out in how well they "get FIRST" and it is easier to discern and make those recommendation.

two more cents.

We keep this up we might have enough change for a shared cup of coffee.

[Rangel]

Seems like FIRST should just make a junior and a senior category if they really want juniors to win it so bad. Would erase most of the moral problems there appears to be right now.

[Katie_UPS]

So how about we look at this a different way:

Originally Posted by Wing

I'm agreeing with you in that the Dean's List should be about the future leaders of FIRST and those who have brought the values of FIRST and FRC to their school and community, not a stunt to give Juniors a 1-up in college admissions.

Originally Posted by ghostmachine360

Now, FIRST has something that could become world-renown past our own community, and set our best students apart from the rest. While I think that the Dean's List award this year will exhibit some students that are truly the embodiment of FIRST, the award isn't supposed to be a publicity stunt.

I would not call this a "publicity stunt" because I doubt this does much to publicize FIRST.

Also, I'm not entirely certain why so many people are bashing something that could possibly be the change between a student getting in or getting rejected from a college (I imagine that the award might help justify a lower GPA or a shorter list of extra curriculars). Is it really that bad that FIRST wants to help out the students involved?

Once again, honor is great and most people love having their ego's inflated/stroked/brought into existance, but that's pretty much all that does for a senior. It actually helps out a junior. Functionality over feelings?

Originally Posted by ebarker

Clarified what ?
In many, but not all, in many cases the senior year is where the student really stands out in how well they "get FIRST" and it is easier to discern and make those recommendation.

Originally Posted by ghostmachine360

And if it turns out to be that way, I don't think they'll ever be able to use the 2012 FIRST Dean's List finalists & winners and later receipients to their true potential to change this organization for the better.

Originally Posted by Wing

I'm agreeing with you in that the Dean's List should be about the future leaders of FIRST and those who have brought the values of FIRST and FRC to their school and community...

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

I was trying to find a compromise.
If FIRST is so focused on changing the culture
---
If they were to have a FIRST "Rising Star" award for juniors who show promise in engineering, and keep the DLA for students who exemplify all aspects of FIRST.

So, lets say your senior wins it. This role model of a student is of DL(F) caliber. Now they're gone and graduated. No more role model for your team. Maybe they'll come back to mentor, but now they're a mentor. As a mentor, its not as much about how you were as a student (which Dean's List recognizes) but who you are as a mentor (the Woodie Flowers award). I could probably write three paragraphs about why I don't think the honor really transfers, but I'll let people wrestle with that one on their own and move on.

Now lets say your junior wins it. The student will be around for another year to serve as an example for younger students and the rest of the team. Your students will see the kind of kid that FIRST considers to be pretty neat (especially compared to other students). In theory, this should breed more DL kids and WILL change some culture. Your future leaders are leading their fellow students on their team. Not wandering off to college or whatever their post-high school plans may be.

There are many ways to think about this (and I'm not asking you to agree and change your mind, but just to consider what I'm saying).


One last thing: I don't think FIRST has the time/money/volunteers/judges to split this award into two categories. And what if a team wants to submit a sophomore or a freshman?


EDIT: I don't assume seniors will leave FIRST, but when they graduate they should seriously have their education (be it in college or elsewhere) be their number one priority, not FIRST. I know students are supposed to do this in high school, but in college you are paying to ignore your studies if you chose do so.

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

So how about we look at this a different way:





I would not call this a "publicity stunt" because I doubt this does much to publicize FIRST.

Also, I'm not entirely certain why so many people are bashing something that could possibly be the change between a student getting in or getting rejected from a college (I imagine that the award might help justify a lower GPA or a shorter list of extra curriculars). Is it really that bad that FIRST wants to help out the students involved?

Once again, honor is great and most people love having their ego's inflated/stroked/brought into existance, but that's pretty much all that does for a senior. It actually helps out a junior. Functionality over feelings?











So, lets say your senior wins it. This role model of a student is of DL(F) caliber. Now they're gone and graduated. No more role model for your team. Maybe they'll come back to mentor, but now they're a mentor. As a mentor, its not as much about how you were as a student (which Dean's List recognizes) but who you are as a mentor (the Woodie Flowers award). I could probably write three paragraphs about why I don't think the honor really transfers, but I'll let people wrestle with that one on their own and move on.

Now lets say your junior wins it. The student will be around for another year to serve as an example for younger students and the rest of the team. Your students will see the kind of kid that FIRST considers to be pretty neat (especially compared to other students). In theory, this should breed more DL kids and WILL change some culture. Your future leaders are leading their fellow students on their team. Not wandering off to college or whatever their post-high school plans may be.

There are many ways to think about this (and I'm not asking you to agree and change your mind, but just to consider what I'm saying).


One last thing: I don't think FIRST has the time/money/volunteers/judges to split this award into two categories. And what if a team wants to submit a sophomore or a freshman?

I do see some of the points you bring up, and they are valid. Though, I don't agree that the senior won't still be a role model. I was inspired by all of the seniors who came before me, and I never let up on my goals to surpass them. I'm finally realizing those goals now. In the same way, If someone wins the Dean's List, they will not be forgotten. Everything they have done to deserve the award and how they acted will be remembered. The Junior would still be at the school and continue to be an influence, but even the senior would be a huge role model to those who he inspires.

Also, I don't think any viable Dean's List candidate would suddenly abandon FIRST and be forgotten, part of the criteria for judging is future plans for involvement in the FIRST community. If someone is a Dean's List winner, and all they do is stroke their ego and leave FIRST, they didn't deserve the award.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Katie_UPS

One last thing: I don't think FIRST has the time/money/volunteers/judges to split this award into two categories. And what if a team wants to submit a sophomore or a freshman?

To support this, I can tell you that we almost nominated a sophomore this year. In the end, we decided to wait and nominate her next year, in order to give two outstanding juniors a chance this year.

[davidthefat]

I personally have something against awards. I like how Dr. Richard Feynman puts it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f61KMw5zVhg