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Unread 25-03-2012, 22:31
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by IndySam View Post
I think back judges are a good idea but if it wasn't done throughout the entire tournament it shouldn't have been done during eliminations. Eliminations should be called exactly the way qualifications were.
There's certainly validity to that idea, but I think that overall, if better enforcement (relative to the rulebook) is the result, the change in officiating practice is justifiable. After all, it's hard for a team to credibly argue that just because they got away with a violation before, they should get away with it again.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 22:41
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Re: Referees and Human Players

I must admit the most common uncalled rule infractions I saw at our regional were human player fouls; but I also saw one get called. The player was throwing the balls back in over the top goal. This caught the eye of the head ref who called the foul. It was obvious that NONE of the human players on that alliance knew the rules. They were leaving balls in the corral and didn't get all their "heaves" in during the last 30sec. They left the balls on the ground behind the wall at the slot when the match ended (not entirely unreasonable), but the field setup crew was a bit confused setting up the next match as it took them a minute to locate the "missing" balls.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 21:56
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by IndySam View Post
This statement is a bit disturbing to me, are you saying that there was more than the standard 4 ref 1 head ref configuration in this match?
Yes, I believe so. There was definitely a back judge on both sides of the field. I was watching the blue side during this specific match in question. I also noticed one behind me during our elimination matches on the red side.

I am not a volunteer or ref, so I have no idea how many refs are supposed to be present during a match.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 21:31
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Re: Referees and Human Players

FIRST in the last few years has been deemphasizing calls made "behind the glass" so to speak, so TKM's post doesn't surprise me, though I still find it interesting. I agree, we should go back to the days where, manpower willing, there are referees to watch the HPs/Drivers/Coaches as well.

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Originally Posted by Tristan Lall View Post
Sounds kind of like a Harrison Bergeron approach to the problem: if you can't improve, at least make every event equally bad. Instead, I think people would be willing to accept a small systemic inconsistency due to some events having more (properly qualified) referees, because it simply represents an effort above and beyond FIRST's minimum standard of enforcement.
Tristan,
That is exactly the approach FIRST has taken in the past. When I was lobbying FIRST to raise referee standards by instituting a "Referee Test," I was told it was unfeasible because it was hard enough filling volunteer roles in general. I think that was also one of the original reasonings behind the split-off of Michigan from FIRST, in the hope that they could "Raise the Bar" so to speak.

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At what point, should a referee step up to a student and let them know they causing fouls? I mean we have flags and hand signals to let the drivers know when they are committing fouls. Shouldn't someone let the human players know when they are committing fouls too?
Adam,
I think you nailed the question. Why didn't the referee step up & notify the student after maybe the 2nd infraction, instead of getting flag-happy? The worst part is the kid in your situation probably never knew what hit him. I know it's the Elims, but maybe that match was his first as HP. I see the goal as a Ref as to help teams prevent potential infractions, as well as award actual ones.

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Originally Posted by bduddy View Post
As a field reset volunteer and wannabe ref, I've tried to notify referees about fouls I've seen... in previous years I was told off by the FTA, and this year the refs seemed to mostly ignore me (as I stated earlier).
I notice some people in general get uptight when you try to help like that and think you're telling them how to do their job. They're likely insecure because they aren't performing to their own expectations, but they should realize that nobody can see every penalty, and appreciate the help. Unfortunately, you can't tell them that, so all you can do is shrug it off.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 21:47
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Re: Referees and Human Players

I have reffed two events this year. If I had to flag an inbounder during qualification I always try and tell them what their infraction was to help them from making the same mistake again. If they don't know the rule by the elimination matches I make no effort to tell them their infractions.

It is almost impossible to police the drivers station during a match. A ref has their zones to watch and that can keep them very busy. About the only time I make sure and watch the inbounders is when I know they are holding a lot of balls and game altering infractions can be made.

As a spectator the last two weekends I have seen many many fouls go uncalled because the ref was engaged somewhere else. I even saw one operator come clear around the drivers station almost all the way next to the ref himself but with the ref watching some close robot action near the bridge he didn't ever see him!

I think a back-judge is necessary if FIRST want's to have these rules enforced.
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Unread 25-03-2012, 20:01
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by Tristan Lall View Post

Incidentally, the head referee is entitled to rely upon information from sources other than referees, per [T13]. So even if an event can't station a true referee there, they could theoretically have another trusted, competent volunteer relay notice of the infractions observed. This could be useful in terms of catching coaches operating robots, or illegal human player shots.
I did this at GTR east, I was an inspector but was assigned to field rest also. I just relayed things I saw to the head ref to look out for. One team had 5 players. And I kept reminding teams to stay in the box
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Unread 25-03-2012, 19:05
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Re: Referees and Human Players

This thread brings up an interesting point. At the Northville District, I witnessed a student rack up close to 27 penalty points for stepping over the line everytime he tried to throw a ball on to the field, during an elimination match.

As P.J. detailed there was a ref standing right behind him signaling to another ref to input the penalties.

This poor kid had no idea he was doing anything wrong. I don't think he was aware of the line or any rules about stepping over it. I am not even sure he knows what happened now. I believe after that match his team (which I don't remember) was eliminated from the tournament.

At what point, should a referee step up to a student and let them know they causing fouls? I mean we have flags and hand signals to let the drivers know when they are committing fouls. Shouldn't someone let the human players know when they are committing fouls too?
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Unread 25-03-2012, 19:31
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Re: Referees and Human Players

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Originally Posted by Adam Freeman View Post
At what point, should a referee step up to a student and let them know they causing fouls? I mean we have flags and hand signals to let the drivers know when they are committing fouls. Shouldn't someone let the human players know when they are committing fouls too?
I think this topic is usually covered by the Head Ref during Drivers Meetings. I have also seen some referees speak to students after matches about how to avoid causing fouls in the future.

IMO, a referee should not talk to students (even to advise that they are causing fouls) DURING a match. That job belongs to the coach.
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