Go to Post Is it really that bad to ask a team to be able to do more than just drive? It's like asking a student to do more than just show up to class... - Katie_UPS [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > General Forum
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Reply
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 11:53
Will Andrews's Avatar
Will Andrews Will Andrews is offline
Registered User
FRC #1218
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 11
Will Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud of
Mentors as Drive Coaches?

As a member of FIRST Team 1218 for the past four seasons and our driver for the last two, the experience that I have had with FIRST has inspired me to pursue a career as an engineer. This program has gripped me like no other activity I've been involved with because being on the drive team has given me a chance to see the benefits of the long hours spent in the build season. Being a member of the drive team for two seasons has made me feel an enormous sense of responsibility for the success of the team and driven me to higher levels of dedication than my first two years.
This experience makes me wonder, why is it that mentors are allowed to act as coaches on the drive team? One of the biggest problems faced by teams is the limitation on the number of kids that are able to take a role in actually controlling the robot in competition and it seems like allowing mentors to fill the position runs the risk of displacing kids that would otherwise be able to get the full FIRST experience. This is not an attack on teams that use mentors as coaches but rather an attempt to understand the logic behind this exception.
__________________
Creativity is always a substitute for the right tool.

Last edited by Will Andrews : 03-04-2012 at 14:16. Reason: Forgot to Pluralize
Reply With Quote
  #2   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 11:55
mwmac's Avatar
mwmac mwmac is online now
JWBWIFWWWADD
AKA: Mike MacLean
FRC #2122 (Team Tators)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: "Wasteland", Idaho
Posts: 664
mwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond reputemwmac has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

search function yields threads where this has been debated at length...
__________________
2016 Carson W 2122, 2052, 3538, 41, AZ North W 2122, 125, 498, MQA, Idaho F 2122, 3250, 3513, MQA, CCC W 2122, 9122, 6174, ICA
2015 Tesla SF IDA 2122, 3360, 2960, 1311 IRI SF 2338, 2122, 107, 234 UT F 2122, 3230, 3405, EEA, WFFA, AZ West W 2122, 3309, 5059, ICA
2014 Galileo QF 1717, 2122, 3683, 193 UT W 2122, 2996, 3191, ICA, CCC W 1678, 2122, 9073, ICA
2013 CalGames W 2122, 1678, 4171, Judges Award
2012 Newton QF 2122, 610, 488 Spokane W 2122, 1983, 4082, EEA
2011 Newton SF 1730, 2122, 11 IRI F 3138, 16, 2122, 1730, UT W 2122, 399, 3239, MQA, Seattle F 2122, 488, 2850, MQA
2010 Galileo SF 78, 51, 2122 UT W 1696, 2122, 3405, IDA, Sacramento F 2122, 2035, 1834, IDA,
2009 Sacramento F 2144, 692, 115, 2122, MQA
2008 Newton Sacramento W 2122, 1662, 115, CA
2007 PNW Regional Highest Rookie Seed
"Enjoying traveling to more distant events" since 2007
Reply With Quote
  #3   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 11:57
Will Andrews's Avatar
Will Andrews Will Andrews is offline
Registered User
FRC #1218
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 11
Will Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud of
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

Conversation on the topic seems to have died down and I think it's an important issue that should be revived.
__________________
Creativity is always a substitute for the right tool.
Reply With Quote
  #4   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:04
Taylor's Avatar
Taylor Taylor is offline
Professor of Thinkology, ThD
AKA: @taylorstem
FRC #3487 (Red Pride Robotics)
Team Role: Teacher
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Indianapolis, IN, USA 46227
Posts: 4,604
Taylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond reputeTaylor has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

The discussions died because the horse just won't get back up.

The consensus at the end of each of the threads is: What works for your team, works for your team. Great. What works for my team works for my team. Great. Let's not impose our will on other teams where it's not necessary or invited. The logic behind both paradigms is discussed at length in the aforementioned threads.
__________________
Hi!
Reply With Quote
  #5   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:05
GoSparx's Avatar
GoSparx GoSparx is offline
Mentor
AKA: Big D
FRC #1126 (SparX)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Webster, New York
Posts: 72
GoSparx is just really niceGoSparx is just really niceGoSparx is just really niceGoSparx is just really niceGoSparx is just really nice
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Andrews View Post
As a member of FIRST Team 1218 for the past four season and our driver for the last two, the experience that I have had with FIRST has inspired me to pursue a career as an engineer. This program has gripped me like no other activity I've been involved with because being on the drive team has given me a chance to see the benefits of the long hours spent in the build season. Being a member of the drive team for two seasons has made me feel an enormous sense of responsibility for the success of the team and driven me to higher levels of dedication than my first two years.
This experience makes me wonder, why is it that mentors are allowed to act as coaches on the drive team? One of the biggest problems faced by teams is the limitation on the number of kids that are able to take a role in actually controlling the robot in competition and it seems like allowing mentors to fill the position runs the risk of displacing kids that would otherwise be able to get the full FIRST experience. This is not an attack on teams that use mentors as coaches but rather an attempt to understand the logic behind this exception.
This has been a hot ticket item for years. I personally think that it is ok for teams to have a mentor as a coach. It's the same as a mentor on any mechanical sub-team. If he is showing you what to do and how to do it, why does it matter if it's in the pits or on the field? If you look at high powered teams that have mentors as coaches, they are also great mentors. Teams like HOT, Wildstang and MOE come to mind fast. Don't take it the wrong way that they are coaches, it just works on some teams especially when the coach is a great mentor. Also, think of all the matches that a mentor has seen and all the input he can now have in the coaching role. I've tried to implement it on my team for awhile, but getting buy in from others is tough
__________________
"Winning is an Outcome"
2003-2008 Match record 152-81-1
Trips to Einstein - 2 (04' + 06")

'03, '04, '08 Buckeye Champs, '07 Finalists
'06 Finger Lakes Champs, '08 Finalists
'06 Galileo Division Champs
'04 Newton Division Champs
'08 Buckeye Motorola Quality Award
'07 Buckeye General Motors Industrial Design Award
'06, '07 Finger Lakes Rockwell Automation Innovation in Control Award
'05 Buckeye RadioShack Inovation in Control award
2-2009 J+J Gracious Professionalism Awards(FLR+GTR) & Xerox Creativity Award(GTR)
Reply With Quote
  #6   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:05
Pavan Dave's Avatar
Pavan Dave Pavan Dave is offline
Busy in College
AKA: I am John Gault.
FRC #1745 (P-51 Mustangs) FRC #118 (Robonauts)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Richardson, Texas
Posts: 1,387
Pavan Dave has a reputation beyond reputePavan Dave has a reputation beyond reputePavan Dave has a reputation beyond reputePavan Dave has a reputation beyond reputePavan Dave has a reputation beyond reputePavan Dave has a reputation beyond reputePavan Dave has a reputation beyond reputePavan Dave has a reputation beyond reputePavan Dave has a reputation beyond reputePavan Dave has a reputation beyond reputePavan Dave has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Pavan Dave
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

Every team is different and has a different dynamic. Many times the coaches on the field are former students who were drivers in the past. This helps because the coaches understand what being on the flight crew is like and the pressure that comes a long with their role(s). They have more experience and are better able to handle situations than many students.



.
__________________
Times change. People change. Teams change.
---
2008-Present: FRC1745, P51-Mustangs - Mentor
2005-2008: FRC118, Robonauts - Alumni
National Director of Philanthropy - Delta Epsilon Psi Fraternity, Inc.
1745 - 118 - ΔΕΨ
Reply With Quote
  #7   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:07
iVanDuzer's Avatar
iVanDuzer iVanDuzer is offline
FRESH POTS!
AKA: Ian VanDuzer
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Hamilton, ON
Posts: 90
iVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

Because mentors are part of the team as well? It's not just the students that need to be inspired.

Also, I was "behind the glass" once, over the course of my 6 years in FIRST. But I'd still say that I got the "full FIRST experience." A driver does not an inspired student make.
__________________
"Everyone you will ever meet knows something you don't."
-Bill Nye the Science Guy

How to Film Your Robot - For When 3 Hour Build Vlogs are just too much.

2011 - 2014: 3710 Cyber Falcons
2007 - 2010: 2056 OP Robotics
Reply With Quote
  #8   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:09
Will Andrews's Avatar
Will Andrews Will Andrews is offline
Registered User
FRC #1218
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 11
Will Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud ofWill Andrews has much to be proud of
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

It seems to me that when the mentors get involved with the drive team they take away from the students. If you're telling the students exactly what to do in the matches then what's the point of even having the students drive the robots? Why not just let the mentors take over? Having mentors coach might make your team more successful but since when is the focus of the competition on winning matches?
__________________
Creativity is always a substitute for the right tool.
Reply With Quote
  #9   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:17
EricH's Avatar
EricH EricH is offline
New year, new team
FRC #1197 (Torbots)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: SoCal
Posts: 19,817
EricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond reputeEricH has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Andrews View Post
It seems to me that when the mentors get involved with the drive team they take away from the students. If you're telling the students exactly what to do in the matches then what's the point of even having the students drive the robots? Why not just let the mentors take over? Having mentors coach might make your team more successful but since when is the focus of the competition on winning matches?
Since it is a competition, the focus is on winning matches whenever you're on the field. Any time you're not on the field, the focus is not on winning matches, true. But if it's a competition, and it is, how are teams not supposed to focus on winning matches?

I think a lot of it has to do with coaching style. The best coaches will tell the drive team high level stuff like "There's one in the corner, go get it and score 3's" or "Go balance this bridge" instead of giving turn-by-turn directions. Or they'll coach to the drive team's level. And you're telling me that a student coach won't tell other students exactly what to do in the matches? That's one I would have a hard time believing across the board, though for individual student coaches I could certainly believe it.
__________________
Past teams:
2003-2007: FRC0330 BeachBots
2008: FRC1135 Shmoebotics
2012: FRC4046 Schroedinger's Dragons

"Rockets are tricky..."--Elon Musk

Reply With Quote
  #10   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:17
iVanDuzer's Avatar
iVanDuzer iVanDuzer is offline
FRESH POTS!
AKA: Ian VanDuzer
no team
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Hamilton, ON
Posts: 90
iVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond reputeiVanDuzer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Andrews View Post
It seems to me that when the mentors get involved with the drive team they take away from the students. If you're telling the students exactly what to do in the matches then what's the point of even having the students drive the robots? Why not just let the mentors take over? Having mentors coach might make your team more successful but since when is the focus of the competition on winning matches?
I think your comment is more in line with the role of the coach as a position and less what mentors actually do. Are you saying that student coaches telling student drivers exactly what to do is better then mentors doing the same thing? In both cases the coaches "might as well take over." And if you're suggesting that students would be less pushy then mentors, then I'd say you don't know too many competitive students!

Side note: the focus of the competition is to win. That's why winners get trophies. But the focus of FIRST is inspiration. Competition and FIRST are separate entities that have different goals. Be careful not to get them confused.

EDIT: Eric beat me to it...
__________________
"Everyone you will ever meet knows something you don't."
-Bill Nye the Science Guy

How to Film Your Robot - For When 3 Hour Build Vlogs are just too much.

2011 - 2014: 3710 Cyber Falcons
2007 - 2010: 2056 OP Robotics

Last edited by iVanDuzer : 03-04-2012 at 12:19. Reason: Eric beat me to it...
Reply With Quote
  #11   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:18
maxweberh's Avatar
maxweberh maxweberh is offline
Registered User
AKA: Max Weber
FRC #3929 (Atomic Dragons)
Team Role: Driver
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Rookie Year: 2012
Location: Philadelphia PA
Posts: 21
maxweberh has much to be proud ofmaxweberh has much to be proud ofmaxweberh has much to be proud ofmaxweberh has much to be proud ofmaxweberh has much to be proud ofmaxweberh has much to be proud ofmaxweberh has much to be proud ofmaxweberh has much to be proud of
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

Our (rookie) team has definitely prospered under having a mentor coach, they were previous drivers, and know a lot about the game and rules. I think the idea of complete student driving, inbounding, and coaching works for some really experienced teams. I think however for some teams having a mentor around in case a chain pops off and you need to fix it in the queuing area, or some other disaster happens, is good. FIRST inspires kids on and off the field. Driving is a great opportunity, but I think some kids just the same rush watching, designing, coding, or building the robot.

This is of course coming from my limited time in FIRST, but from what I have seen mentor coaching isn't depriving students of coaching time. Having multiple drivers is also a solution, if getting as many students behind the glass is the goal.

Thanks
__________________
Team 3929 Atomic Dragons (2012-XXXX)
2014 Lenape District Winners
Reply With Quote
  #12   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:22
Alan Anderson's Avatar
Alan Anderson Alan Anderson is offline
Software Architect
FRC #0045 (TechnoKats)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Kokomo, Indiana
Posts: 9,113
Alan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond reputeAlan Anderson has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Andrews View Post
It seems to me that when the mentors get involved with the drive team they take away from the students.
I don't understand that sentiment at all. Mentors add to the process. That's the very foundation of FRC.
Reply With Quote
  #13   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:24
artdutra04's Avatar
artdutra04 artdutra04 is offline
VEX Robotics Engineer
AKA: Arthur Dutra IV; NERD #18
FRC #0148 (Robowranglers)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: Greenville, TX
Posts: 3,078
artdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond reputeartdutra04 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Andrews View Post
It seems to me that when the mentors get involved with the drive team they take away from the students. If you're telling the students exactly what to do in the matches then what's the point of even having the students drive the robots? Why not just let the mentors take over? Having mentors coach might make your team more successful but since when is the focus of the competition on winning matches?
Different teams have different ideas on how best to accomplish the goals of FIRST. FIRST HQ has purposely remained quiet about which is a preferred way, and has left it up to individual teams to best determine how to run themselves.

Thus, there is no right way or wrong way, only different ways. What works for one team does not necessarily work best for another.

This topic (among several others) come up every year on Chief Delphi. Every year both sides present exactly the same arguments (if you search, every argument or opinion posted in this thread will have been posted multiple times already), and every year the thread either spirals out of control into a unproductive, name-calling flame war and is locked... or both sides agree that there are different and equally acceptable ways to run a team.
__________________
Art Dutra IV
Robotics Engineer, VEX Robotics, Inc., a subsidiary of Innovation First International (IFI)
Robowranglers Team 148 | GUS Robotics Team 228 (Alumni) | Rho Beta Epsilon (Alumni) | @arthurdutra

世上无难事,只怕有心人.
Reply With Quote
  #14   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:27
George1902's Avatar
George1902 George1902 is offline
It's a SPAM thing...
AKA: George1083; George180
FRC #0180 (SPAM)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rookie Year: 1998
Location: Stuart, FL
Posts: 785
George1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond reputeGeorge1902 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

Oh look, it's this thread again...
__________________
George

"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
-- Martin Luther King, Jr.
Reply With Quote
  #15   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 03-04-2012, 12:29
GCentola's Avatar
GCentola GCentola is offline
Strategical Tactitian
AKA: Garrick
no team (SparX)
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Rookie Year: 2010
Location: Webster
Posts: 383
GCentola has much to be proud ofGCentola has much to be proud ofGCentola has much to be proud ofGCentola has much to be proud ofGCentola has much to be proud ofGCentola has much to be proud ofGCentola has much to be proud ofGCentola has much to be proud of
Re: Mentors as Drive Coaches?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor View Post
The discussions died because the horse just won't get back up.

The consensus at the end of each of the threads is: What works for your team, works for your team. Great. What works for my team works for my team. Great. Let's not impose our will on other teams where it's not necessary or invited. The logic behind both paradigms is discussed at length in the aforementioned threads.
Agreed. Unfortunately, not only is the horse beaten to death repeatedly, it usually ends in a big fight between the sides that involves arguing, anger, hating on teams and generally un-FIRST-like conduct.


Speaking from 2 years of experience, I would like to say the following:

SparX believes in having students as the Drive Coach. I have done so for this year and 2011 and cannot express how much the experience has helped me grow as a team member, leader, and, well....Coach. I think there is absolutely a benefit to having students in this position, as long as there are capable students to do so. In the past, we have had very capable coaches ranging in years of experience. Personally, I am incredibly thankfult hat this is my second year because I can use everything I learned last year to help me even further but I will admit that there is still way more out there that I can learn (if you are a seasoned pro at coaching, check out my other post). I love working with other students, I love doing what I do, and I support student coaches.

That doesn't mean I don't believe in mentor coaches. In the words ok Karthik, "Adult coaches are like the rockstars of the FIRST program." I thionk there is also a great deal to be learned from mentor coaches who have seen more battles than many students. In addition, mentor coaches are constant and do not graduate like students do. Team 1717 is a team full of seniors and the team changes every year. In this case, a mentor coach makes sense. There are many adult coaches I look up to as well for their ability, knowledge of strategy and general technique. FLR 2011: I got to play with 217. Paul is intense, but I definitely learned alot from him. IRI 2011: we had a match with 71 and 111 AT THE SAME TIME. The amount of experience between Hammond and Stang easily outweighed anything I could contribute, yet both teams were amazing to work with, and I got to coach alongside Raul. Same with 469 at IRI, and many of the mentor coaches I encountered (in any comeptition).

To sum it up: I have no quarrel with mentor coaches. They defintitely contribute something worthwhile. I am incredibly happy to have the position of Coach on 1126, and to have learned from many mentors. Please do not let this thread turn into a big hate-fest. As long as the kids are inspired, FIRST is working.
__________________
GO SparX on 3!!!!!

Check us out at:
http://www.gosparx.org
http://www.facebook.com/SparX1126
I Love Two Pencil Designs!

Last edited by GCentola : 03-04-2012 at 16:24.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:07.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi