Einstein Field issues Handled correctly?

[Teamcodeorange]

Inferring nothing about the teams that played in the finals I believe the field problems were handled very poorly. I know there are time concerns but that was unacceptable. What do you think?


Edit: btw this happened to us (Code Orange 3476) twice on the Archimedes field.

[ratdude747]

Agreed. They should have moved to another field and tried again.

[plnyyanks]

I may take some flack for this, so I'll try and explain my thought process as thoroughly as possible. I'm not yet entirely convinced that it's the field/FIRST's problem, and I don't think I know enough to make an educated call. I agree that it looks very suspicious, but this is how I see it.

These problems are very hard to diagnose the root cause of. There have been numerous long threads here listing as much evidence as we can, and many of the greatest minds in FRC haven't yet figured it out. These are not easy problems to solve, and I have full confidence that the FRC staff is working as hard as they can to work this out.

Many times, it is actually a robot problem. There have been loose connectors, USB issues, and more. After the CT Regional (which had its fair share of communication issues), I spent some time talking to the FTA. We agreed that some (but not all) of the problems were team caused - IIRC, there was a team that admitted its own fault on this. For the rest of the problems, the FTA said that he simply didn't know. There are so many variables constantly changing, and it's extremely hard to debug with the tools available. WiFi networks can be very tricky, especially regarding interference. I'm not saying it's FIRST's problem, and I'm not saying it's the teams' problem. Just trying to look at the big picture here.

Now, with a little more respect to today's Einstein matches, specifically. Yes, it is fishy that for some teams, this was the first sign of communication trouble. Yes, it is fishy that the robot at Red 2 was totally dead for 3+ matches in a row. Yes, this is a huge problem - just look at Dean and Woodie's facial expressions during their speeches, they both looked REALLY stressed out, and with good reason.

But if you were in their situation, what would you have done? Consider the weather: electrical storms and hail. That can't be good for the field networks. Now, I'm not in St. Louis now, but I think the inclement weather started right around the same time as the Einstein matches (EDIT: apparently, it started for the finals. But it's still possible for there to be electromagnetic interference before and after the hail started, since the storm was still in the area). Thunderstorms and field trouble are correlated, in this case (but this doesn't imply causation, however). But I think the weather played a large part in the trouble - the field network had to have had some problems with all the electrical interference in the air, from both the weather and people's devices in the stands. I would love to see some data from the FMS logs, DS logs from teams competing on Einstein, and any data about wifi traffic in the area. It may shed some light on the problems.

I do think they should have considered moving to another field or switching red/blue, and I hope they did consider that. But they decided not to, for whatever reason, and I remain confident that they chose this with a rational explanation; I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Let's be frank: getting eliminated due to connection issues is just an absolutely awful way to go. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It sucks. A lot. We see that we have a problem. Complaining won't solve anything. Let's look at the big picture, and try to see how all the many variables fit into place. The problem is complicated enough on its own. Let's put our heads together, collect as much hard data points as we can, and try to fix things.

tl;dr: I'm not going to pass judgement on how things were handled and whose fault it was. I wasn't in St. Louis, and I don't know all the facts that the field people knew. Until I know as much as possible, I'm going to refrain from saying it was either party's fault. Let's try to get as much data as possible into the open and work together to solve the problem instead of mudslinging on whose fault it was.

EDIT x2: I'm not saying that it's nobody's fault. It's possible that it is entirely FIRST's fault. But I don't feel comfortable making that call with the current information available to me.

[ErikEdhlund]

Originally Posted by plnyyanks

Now, I'm not in St. Louis now, but I think the inclement weather started right around the same time as the Einstein matches. Thunderstorms and field trouble are correlated, in this case (but this doesn't imply causation, however). But I think the weather played a large part in the trouble - the field network had to have had some problems with all the electrical interference in the air, from both the weather and people's devices in the stands.

I am curious as to how it would be possible for electrical interference in an enclosed dome where there was no apparent power surges or outages. Not to sound rude but is that even possible?

[Walter Deitzler]

Originally Posted by ErikEdhlund

I am curious as to how it would be possible for electrical interference in an enclosed dome where there was no apparent power surges or outages. Not to sound rude but is that even possible?

I don't know if its possible or not, but after living in ST. Louis my whole life, I have seen this stuff happen during bad weather. Sometimes during bad weather I will lose wireless, without a power surge or outage. I wouldn't put it past the Midwest...

[bduddy]

Originally Posted by LedLover96

I don't know if its possible or not, but after living in ST. Louis my whole life, I have seen this stuff happen during bad weather. Sometimes during bad weather I will lose wireless, without a power surge or outage. I wouldn't put it past the Midwest...

The worst of the storm (hail and thunderstorms) came during the finals matches, which had the least communications problems. It's certainly possible, of course, but I don't see much of a link there.

Anyway, I think this question has to be asked: Why is the Einstein field one that has (generally) not been used at all during the season? Yes, I'm sure it's tested just as much as the other fields if not more, and I understand the appeal of playing the final matches on a pristine, unused field, but I think the benefits of using a tried and tested field outweigh those. If in a future year there are again a lot of communication problems, they could even make it part of the protocol to play the finals on the field that had the fewest such issues during its own matches.

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by ErikEdhlund

I am curious as to how it would be possible for electrical interference in an enclosed dome where there was no apparent power surges or outages. Not to sound rude but is that even possible?

This is how I see it. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not an expert on this stuff, but I don't think many of us here are. I'll do the best I can. Wifi networks use electromagnetic waves to transmit data (yes, oversimplified, I know). Thunderstorms emit lots of electromagnetic radiation. This interference, I think, had the possibility to cause some serious problems.

The dome is not impervious to electromagnetic radiation. Some interference can still get through (albeit less, compared to open space). Think about how, say, cell phones cause wireless interference: more electromagnetic radiation in the air, interfering with your network. This doesn't cause any power outages or surges, but still can take down the field network. It's similar with regard to that kind of atmospheric noise - it doesn't have to be enough for a power surge to impact the network.

[BrendanB]

What gets me is that

1. Einstein was never used. Do they ever bring out 6 robots to check a practice match or do they hope they assembled it right?

2. The robots were all in working order before coming to Einstein.

3. Some robots worked in some matches then died later others not at all.

FIRST couldn't find a problem, but there is a problem and when you are down to the final four you can't just decide to keep playing through matches when there is a problem like this.

What I would have suggested (please note I will admit I'm not an expert at the FMS or electrical components in general) is that they run a test match in between awards that bypasses the FMS system. Just like a team would if they wanted to run a practice match at home. Each head ref enables the robots in practice mode so they run autonomous followed by teleop. Allow the teams to drive around the field.

Everybody works fine and 118 moves then you have field error if someone dies and 118 is still not moving and robots loose comms then you have robot failure. If the field is at error I've always wondered why they could just run a match as listed above where the refs start each robot at the exact same time. Understandably you might have some robots running a tenth of a second longer than others but I see that as better than not at all.

Again the above is a real long shot but it is an option other than running matches and hoping everyone is okay because you can't find a problem. I was at the CT regional where 118 and other had problems and they traced them to USB and robot errors not the field and I didn't see that here unless they kept it quiet.

Overall very sad to see robots perform amazing in their divisions and not agree with that field.

[Chi Meson]

I would be curious to know where the Einstein field was during regionals. I'm treading very lightly here, because we had just come to terms with our season and accepted fate for what it is: a slippery eel. For those who just watched 118, you saw exactly what happened in the CT semis. Watching the Robonauts brick again, and again, was terribly sad. They have such a beautiful robot, and tripling with them was always picture perfect.

The field in CT was the same as the one in NYC , which also had persistent comm issues, predominantly on the red side. So, where has Einstein been?

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Chi Meson

I would be curious to know where the Einstein field was during regionals. I'm treading very lightly here, because we had just come to terms with our season and accepted fate for what it is: a slippery eel. For those who just watched 188, you saw exactly what happened in the CT semis. Watching the Robonauts brick again, and again, was terribly sad. They have such a beautiful robot, and tripling with them was always picture perfect.

The field in CT was the same as the one in NYC , which also had persistent comm issues, predominantly on the red side. So, where has Einstein been?

Einstein has been the backup field sitting in a warehouse all season, AKA never been used. Part of me believes that the robots we saw were the first robots ever to connect to that FMS. I don't know much about the system but I don't believe a FIRST field is working properly and is ready for competition until I see 6 robots play a match with no issues.

[arizonafoxx]

Here are my two cents for what it is worth.

We had around an hour after every field was finished before the Einstein field started. When the finals started on Einstein we had to listen to around 50 minutes of speeches and awards before we got to the first match. Was this really the best use of time in hind sight? Why can't each robot have a practice connection during that down time. NASCAR has practice time on the track, Soccer has warm ups on the field, Football has warm ups on the field before the super bowl. With the amount of time that this field sat in a warehouse how many hours of time were robots connected to the field. Every other field at the event had a previous regional where it was used and the equipment was tested. Second why can't one match be completed before the first awards and Deans speech are presented. If there was a comms problem there would have been around 50 minutes to troubleshoot the problem while Dean and others were speaking. Don't get me wrong I like listening to the speeches to a certain extent but I also think everyone is excited and want to at least see one or two matches right away before the speeches start. Had everyone seen there was a potential problem with this field before there is an issue where they are behind schedule due to Dean's speech or something else they could have realized they needed to cut the speeches shorter to rerun a match or something.

Just my two cents.

I think there will be a valid solution to this by next year that is stated in the manual. At the very least the the teams should have switched sides so that each team had to deal with the same field issues.

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Chi Meson

I would be curious to know where the Einstein field was during regionals. I'm treading very lightly here, because we had just come to terms with our season and accepted fate for what it is: a slippery eel. For those who just watched 118, you saw exactly what happened in the CT semis. Watching the Robonauts brick again, and again, was terribly sad. They have such a beautiful robot, and tripling with them was always picture perfect.

The field in CT was the same as the one in NYC , which also had persistent comm issues, predominantly on the red side. So, where has Einstein been?

Einstein (correct me if I'm wrong) is the emergency backup field that spends all season sitting in a warehouse in Memphis, Tennessee.

[ghostmachine360]

You are correct.

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by ErikEdhlund

Another concern would be based on the information provided why wouldn't wifi in schools or homes lose connection during bad storms?

This:

Originally Posted by LedLover96

I don't know if its possible or not, but after living in ST. Louis my whole life, I have seen this stuff happen during bad weather. Sometimes during bad weather I will lose wireless, without a power surge or outage. I wouldn't put it past the Midwest...

Originally Posted by ErikEdhlund

There are a few problems here,wouldn't make sense that the entire stadium be electrically grounded in case of lightning striking the dome itself?

I'm not saying that an electrical current (like, electrons flowing) passes from the sky, through the dome, and into the field network. Like you said, I'd assume the dome is grounded, preventing this from happening. I am saying that the culprit might be electromagnetic radiation, not current. Electromagnetic radiation exhibits exhibits wave-like behavior as it travels through space. This would allow it to travel through the (grounded) dome and interfere with the network. The wave emitted by the storm would interact with the wave emitted by the router, get into conflict, and mess things up for the teams.

[ErikEdhlund]

Originally Posted by plnyyanks

This:


I'm not saying that an electrical current (like, electrons flowing) passes from the sky, through the dome, and into the field network. Like you said, I'd assume the dome is grounded, preventing this from happening. I am saying that the culprit might be electromagnetic radiation, not current. Electromagnetic radiation exhibits exhibits wave-like behavior as it travels through space. This would allow it to travel through the (grounded) dome and interfere with the network. The wave emitted by the storm would interact with the wave emitted by the router, get into conflict, and mess things up for the teams.

But the problem is that based on the theory behind electromagnetic radiation we would have interference during ever major thunderstorm in lesser insulated buildings. Also if there was any major waves that would affect the stadium, other electronic devices such as phones and laptops would be affected as well.