Einstein Field issues Handled correctly?

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by ErikEdhlund

But the problem is that based on the theory behind electromagnetic radiation we would have interference during ever major thunderstorm in lesser insulated buildings. Also if there was any major waves that would affect the stadium, other electronic devices such as phones and laptops would be affected as well.

Well, for what it's worth, as I was leaving the dome after Einstein, I was unable to send texts on my phone and got the error, "Network not responding". I have Verizon and not a smartphone, if this post even matters at all haha.

[ErikEdhlund]

Originally Posted by plnyyanks

This is how I see it. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not an expert on this stuff, but I don't think many of us here are. I'll do the best I can. Wifi networks use electromagnetic waves to transmit data (yes, oversimplified, I know). Thunderstorms emit lots of electromagnetic radiation. This interference, I think, had the possibility to cause some serious problems.

The dome is not impervious to electromagnetic radiation. Some interference can still get through (albeit less, compared to open space). Think about how, say, cell phones cause wireless interference: more electromagnetic radiation in the air, interfering with your network. This doesn't cause any power outages or surges, but still can take down the field network. It's similar with regard to that kind of atmospheric noise - it doesn't have to be enough for a power surge to impact the network.

There are a few problems here,wouldn't make sense that the entire stadium be electrically grounded in case of lightning striking the dome itself? Another concern would be based on the information provided why wouldn't wifi in schools or homes lose connection during bad storms? There is also the problem that the only way the noise would affect the robot connection would be if we all connected to that router since 3G and the competition signal run on different wavelengths.

[Deetman]

Originally Posted by ErikEdhlund

There are a few problems here,wouldn't make sense that the entire stadium be electrically grounded in case of lightning striking the dome itself? Another concern would be based on the information provided why wouldn't wifi in schools or homes lose connection during bad storms? There is also the problem that the only way the noise would affect the robot connection would be if we all connected to that router since 3G and the competition signal run on different wavelengths.

Agreed... If that entire stadium isn't grounded properly I wouldn't want to be in it during an electrical storm. With the proper grounding that building makes a Faraday cage for everything inside it limiting (or eliminating) any electromagnetic waves from going in or out. This is the same reason that generally your cell phone loses signal quality inside large buildings like the stadium.

Satellite TV (well any satellite communications really) have issues with electrical storms because there is no way for that signal to avoid the interference the storm provides.

Regarding cell phones and other connected devices, generally they are running on different frequencies than the 5GHz (I'm assuming they were not using 2.4GHz) WiFi we use in FRC. While harmonics can be nasty and have an effect, generally they won't be strong enough to be an issue; they come more in to play in things like Space to ground transmissions (see LightSquared interfering with GPS despite being in a different frequency band).

There is no doubt in my mind that any issues were not caused by general electromagnetic interference with the WiFi system. I'm not discounting multiple WiFi networks being present confusing the routers on board our robots, but that is not directly related.

[Anupam Goli]

Even if it wasn't interference, what happened to Code Bonde? Why couldn't they switch out to a Code Bonde setup and tried that?

[Steven Donow]

Originally Posted by Wing

Even if it wasn't interference, what happened to Code Bonde? Why couldn't they switch out to a Code Bonde setup and tried that?

Wow. I totally forgot about Code Bonde until now. Why DIDN'T they do that? I assume there must have been a reason...has it been used at all this season?

[Anupam Goli]

I heard something about it being implementable at the regional level and not beyond that, but I'm not sure myself. Code Bonde was put in place for situations like this where wireless interference could be a problem.

[Deetman]

Originally Posted by Wing

I heard something about it being implementable at the regional level and not beyond that, but I'm not sure myself. Code Bonde was put in place for situations like this where wireless interference could be a problem.

If wireless interference truly was the root cause, I'm sure they would have put it into effect. All of these events have a Spectrum Analyzer at them monitoring the levels at various frequencies. I'd imagine that everything on that front was well within tolerances.

Not to mention that it hasn't been used all season. Who's to say the problem wouldn't be made WORSE or you introduce other problems in the process of switching?

[Kevin Sevcik]

Bonde was used once this season at FLR. Looking through the FLR thread, there wasn't much mentioned as to why. There also wasn't any comment on comms problems or anything, so go figure.

If it's implementable on a regional level, you should be able to run it on Einstein. They're clearly not running anything different on FMS at Einstein, judging by the fake Qual matches on the Match Results page. I suspect no one thought there would be a problem, and there wasn't time between matches to switch out the setup to the Bonde setup.

[jasonbrooks]

Originally Posted by stevend1994

Wow. I totally forgot about Code Bonde until now. Why DIDN'T they do that? I assume there must have been a reason...has it been used at all this season?

I'm sorry, but I am from an FTC team...what is Code Bonde?

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by jasonbrooks

I'm sorry, but I am from an FTC team...what is Code Bonde?

Originally Posted by FRC Team Update Manual

Code Bondé



Summary: If a competition’s wireless environment has too many Access Points (AP’s), the wireless bridge provided to teams will not be able to connect to the field’s AP. Should FIRST determine that an event meets this criteria, we will employ an emergency procedure, called Operation Bondé, to insure that the event continues with minimal impact. This determination will most likely be made Wednesday or Thursday morning, and will be communicated to teams as early as possible. In the event of an Operation Bondé, teams will use a DLink DIR-825, provided by FIRST in the queue, instead of the DAP-1522 that’s required by the rules.



Background: The DAP-1522 wireless bridge required for competition will not link to FIRST’s field access point if there are more than approximately 60 active access points in the venue. FIRST is working with all scheduled venues to reduce the number of access points active during the competition.



In the event that a venue cannot limit the number of active access points, FIRST will implement the emergency WiFi plan. FIRST has identified and tested an alternate bridge, the DIR-825, which is successful at reliably connecting with the FIRST access point in hostile WiFi environments like those described above.



Detail: FIRST will ship a small batch of these devices to each event to be used in the event of a hostile wireless environment. Teams will be asked to trade out their DAP-1522 wireless bridge for the FIRST provided DIR-825 while they’re in queuing, use it in the match, and then return it to the field crew after leaving the field.

Code Bonde is used as an emergency in case of a hostile wifi environment.

[Brandon_L]

Originally Posted by Deetman

were not caused by general electromagnetic interference with the WiFi system. I'm not discounting multiple WiFi networks being present confusing the routers on board our robots, but that is not directly related.

I may be a bit late on this (I only read up to like page 4 so far, I've been on a 15 hour bus ride back.) but I did check the wifi signals in the dome while Einstein was going on. I only picked up about 4 signals, only like one or two were somewhat strong.

Also one question that arose on the ride back from a few people: Why would the teams agree to play on a broken field?

[216Robochick288]

I honestly hesitate to answer. Maybe switching fields just simply wasnt an answer. It is hard to say for sure, but I anxiously await what FIRST might have to say about this. I certainly would hope that this gets solved for next year. Still, congrats to The Bomb Squad, Raider Robotics and SPAM.

Originally Posted by Brandon_L

Also one question that arose on the ride back from a few people: Why would the teams agree to play on a broken field?

In a responce ot this, what were they supposed to do? I see little that the teams could do.

Honestly, While I completely disagree with how things were handled, what else could they do? All other fields were torn down, and they spent every second not playing trying to find the root of the problem.

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256

All other fields were torn down,

That is also a problem... they need to keep at least one other field ready to go in case this kind of thing happens...

[Racer26]

They should have gone to Galileo after the first replay when 118 sat dead in the replayed SF1.1