FIRST does have other options re Enistein.

[de_]

I am a seasoned FIRST electrical/computer engineering mentor. I had the luxury of attending the championship strictly as an observer. Unfortunately my observations are that in all certainty the wrong outcome was realized. Just review the Archimedes finals and pay attention to the scores and the fact that triple balances were the norm and compare that to Einstein results. As an engineer I am truly sorry for an incorrect result based on technology failure. That alliance could not have paid a higher price as there is no material chance they will all be at the championship and in the same division at once ever again.
FIRST does have options. Do nothing with a promise to do better next year is not the only one. I feel strongly that the FIRST board should step up and should review the videos and if their conclusion is the same as mine, issue a one time special recognition championship flag and trophy to that alliance both to recognizes the alliance but also to remind us that technology can and regularly does let us down and never become complacent in our blind faith trust in it.

Science is based on facts. The facts in the Archimedes finals videos are undeniable.

After two full days of thinking about this non-trival issue, as a mentor I find if I didn't post this I would be disrespecting the alliance and the FIRST philosophy.

UPDATE: Okay I realized this would controversial. If there were alliances in other divisions that could regularly score say 60-70 ball points and triple balance every time against high end teams AND lost out in their division due to unexplained dead robots, then this changes everything. If you know of an example, could you please post the field and a team # from the alliance so I can take a look and possibly retract my post.

[pathew100]

What about the other alliances on Einstein?

[EricH]

Pat is right. There were 4 alliances on Einstein, all of which had some form of communication issue. To say that one alliance should get a "recognition flag" over all the others is absurd. Reviewing videos won't help--in that case, Newton and Curie need to be reviewed too, along with Archimedes and Galileo. But it still won't help, because you play differently against different opponents.

The better way to handle this, IMO, would be for FIRST to reserve slots at the Championship for all 12 Einstein teams for next year (though 1114 won't need to use theirs due to joining the HoF). That, at least, is not without an applicable precedent. Twice in the past, a finalist alliance at a regional has been given slots at the Championship because *something* got messed up pretty badly in the regional finals.

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by EricH

.

The better way to handle this, IMO, would be for FIRST to reserve slots at the Championship for all 12 Einstein teams for next year (though 1114 won't need to use theirs due to joining the HoF). That, at least, is not without an applicable precedent. Twice in the past, a finalist alliance at a regional has been given slots at the Championship because *something* got messed up pretty badly in the regional finals.

I think this would be the best way to approach this matter.

[BigJ]

I am also for giving the Einstein bids to CMP but then that also begs the question "What about teams with comms problems in the divisional rounds?" etc.

Also can we stop making a new topic every 3 hours about Einstein? There are literally 5 or more Einstein threads on the front page (at least in my portal config) and this easily could have fit into 3 of them

[EricH]

Originally Posted by BigJ

I am also for giving the Einstein bids to CMP but then that also begs the question "What about teams with comms problems in the divisional rounds?" etc.

Or regionals?

My thought would be that the Einstein teams get CMP slots (whether they get any sort of discount, including a 100% discount, is up in the air but would probably be a good idea). These are the teams with the most exposure of the issue, and the ones possibly hardest hit.

Again my thoughts: Divisional elimination issues (at least down to semis) get either a discounted registration or a guaranteed slot at a regional of their choice other than their home regional (and announced soon enough that they can raise the funds). These teams could have made Einstein if their comms were operational.

Anything below the divisional elims is going to get far too complicated to find and award.

[thefro526]

Originally Posted by EricH

The better way to handle this, IMO, would be for FIRST to reserve slots at the Championship for all 12 Einstein teams for next year (though 1114 won't need to use theirs due to joining the HoF). That, at least, is not without an applicable precedent. Twice in the past, a finalist alliance at a regional has been given slots at the Championship because *something* got messed up pretty badly in the regional finals.

Eric, I agree - with one minor change. I believe that FIRST should invite all 12 Division winners to the Championship free of charge.

Let those teams use the $5k they save on registration to help them prepare for a potential return to Einstein.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by thefro526

Eric, I agree - with one minor change. I believe that FIRST should invite all 12 Division winners to the Championship free of charge.

Let those teams use the $5k they save on registration to help them prepare for a potential return to Einstein.

Not to mention that it's very likely that almost all of the teams have earned/will earn that slot anyway and feels like an empty gesture.

2056 is more likely to miss the Championship Event than the world to implode tomorrow, but that's about it.

[Bryscus]

Team 180 had comm problems and we worked through them. We lost communications in the last match as well. However, we were ready at a moment's notice to reboot the robot to get as much play time as we possibly could. We foresaw this potential problem and changed our strategy on the fly. Also, I showed some of the 118 kids how to reboot and what to look for in the event of a problem. I'm not sure if they tried it or not, but I wanted them to move almost as much as they did.

The reason our alliance played so well was that 16 could retrieve balls from our opponents and pass them to us. I didn't see any other team play such incredible defense the entire competition. One could perhaps even go so far as to say that that Bomb Squad could have been paired with any two good key shooters and come out extremely competitive. I'm sure there were a couple good robots that were individually better than any robot on our alliance, but the alliance teamwork is what made the difference.

We could also triple balance very quickly. I think the fact that we never had to shows more than actually triple balancing. I hope that hateful comments such as these aren't shared with the kids. This certainly doesn't help spread the message of FIRST.

- Bryce

[sgreco]

Originally Posted by Bryscus

Team 180 had comm problems and we worked through them. We lost communications in the last match as well. However, we were ready at a moment's notice to reboot the robot to get as much play time as we possibly could. We foresaw this potential problem and changed our strategy on the fly. Also, I showed some of the 118 kids how to reboot and what to look for in the event of a problem. I'm not sure if they tried it or not, but I wanted them to move almost as much as they did.

The reason our alliance played so well was that 16 could retrieve balls from our opponents and pass them to us. I didn't see any other team play such incredible defense the entire competition. One could perhaps even go so far as to say that that Bomb Squad could have been paired with any two good key shooters and come out extremely competitive. I'm sure there were a couple good robots that were individually better than any robot on our alliance, but the alliance teamwork is what made the difference.

We could also triple balance very quickly. I think the fact that we never had to shows more than actually triple balancing. I hope that hateful comments such as these aren't shared with the kids. This certainly doesn't help spread the message of FIRST.

- Bryce

I appreciate the pride you have in your ability to overcome the adversity caused by communication issues that were out of your control, but this simply wasn't how the game was supposed to be played, and that's why people are questioning the outcome. Teams spent the whole year practicing with a strategy of a 3 on 3 game, and the variation created by communication related immobility simply wasn't what most (or any) of the teams on Einstein prepared for. You can't really tell someone they lost after making them lose at something they didn't prepare for (and frankly shouldn't have had to prepare for).

That said, I don't disagree with you, but I think it's obvious as a bystander that the matches on Einstein were not entirely legitimate, and don't really reflect what teams were asked to prepare for when the game was released.

I posted about this before on another thread, so I won't repeat myself, but here's the link http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...&postcount=183

[AmoryG]

No matter how you look at it this doesn't make any sense at all. Even if people believe the winning alliance did not earn their victory, it would be tremendously hypocritical to hand out awards that the other alliances didn't earn either. If we replayed all the elimination matches, it's very possible that none of the division champions would have made it to einstein. I don't believe the curie finalists played their best matches, if we replayed them the results could easily have gone either way. The galileo champs lost matches to two separate alliances. If their alliance had major com issues during their rubber matches, they could easily have lost. I heard from newton two very good alliances had comm issues at some point during eliminations. If they didn't it certainly is possible they could have beaten the winning alliance. And the archimedes champs barely defeated 67's alliance. They could easily have lost if their alliance managed the tripple balance in the final match.

All I'm saying is that no alliance is a sure bet to win it all. The archimedes alliance certainly didn't deserve to lose the way they did, but they don't deserve to be called world champions, or even finalists for that matter. They never earned that title. The only alliance that earned that title was 16, 25, and 180, just as the rules say. It wouldn't fix anything to take it away from them, and the title would be completely meaningless if it was given to another alliance. If FIRST wanted a fair fight, they shouldn't have played out the matches in the first place. They should have moved the fight to a different field, or a different time, or perhaps they shouldn't have played the matches at all. The time has passed where we can do anything about it. Handing out awards or taking them away would be just unfair, and replaying the matches would be awkward, especially if the winners aren't 16, 25, and 180. They have already celebrated their victory, and even if they were the best alliance there is no guarantee they would win, as I have explained before.

[Astrokid248]

Originally Posted by Bryscus

Team 180 had comm problems and we worked through them. We lost communications in the last match as well. However, we were ready at a moment's notice to reboot the robot to get as much play time as we possibly could. We foresaw this potential problem and changed our strategy on the fly. Also, I showed some of the 118 kids how to reboot and what to look for in the event of a problem. I'm not sure if they tried it or not, but I wanted them to move almost as much as they did.
- Bryce

From our copilot (who doesn't have an account as far as I can tell):
"that was the first thing we tried, in fact I know that I hit it multiple times, as well as an fta, we even restarted the DS in the middle of the match, but alas nothing changed"
So there you go. Thank you for suggesting it to them, it's sad that it didn't work.

[Bryscus]

Originally Posted by Astrokid248

From our copilot (who doesn't have an account as far as I can tell):
"that was the first thing we tried, in fact I know that I hit it multiple times, as well as an fta, we even restarted the DS in the middle of the match, but alas nothing changed"
So there you go. Thank you for suggesting it to them, it's sad that it didn't work.

I'm sorry to hear that was the case. We were expecting a tough match and were also completely side-swiped by the field problems. It bothered me immensely to see the defeat on the faces of some of the 118 team members after the second round of field problems. I don't think anyone on Einstein (not even the blue winners) were happy with the situation. We came to win fair and square. The Newton alliance was a formidable force indeed and deserved better than that - and Archimedes as well.

- Bryce

[PAR_WIG1350]

In 2010 we saw the "wrong outcome realized" when 469's strategy was outplayed. Just because many people expect one thing and something else happened doesn't mean that it was wrong. It just means we were wrong.

[swwrobotics]

Originally Posted by EricH

Pat is right. There were 4 alliances on Einstein, all of which had some form of communication issue. To say that one alliance should get a "recognition flag" over all the others is absurd. Reviewing videos won't help--in that case, Newton and Curie need to be reviewed too, along with Archimedes and Galileo. But it still won't help, because you play differently against different opponents.

The better way to handle this, IMO, would be for FIRST to reserve slots at the Championship for all 12 Einstein teams for next year (though 1114 won't need to use theirs due to joining the HoF). That, at least, is not without an applicable precedent. Twice in the past, a finalist alliance at a regional has been given slots at the Championship because *something* got messed up pretty badly in the regional finals.

Just wondering, does any one know what HoF stands for?