What do YOU want in the Kit of Parts?

[AlexH]

lipo's also don't like if you draw more than their "c" rating... or if you hit them too hard... but you can transport them easier than a123 batteries. go figure....

[CWhiz]

I would like to see better availability of batteries through the ordering system, the last two years they have been sold out before we can get our order in.

I agree with some of the others - we would really like to see some 80/20 availability through FIRST Choice. We never use the aluminum provided in the kit, but we use a lot of 80/20 extrusion each year.

More Victors (and less Jaguars) would also be good for us. The Jaguars have some additional capability, but we have had failures in competition whereas the Victors have always worked. Providing less in the kit and more availability through FIRST Choice would work for us.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by CWhiz

I would like to see better availability of batteries through the ordering system, the last two years they have been sold out before we can get our order in.

Did you buy batteries from Enersys or MK?

MK has always been in stock and on our doorstep within 2 days of ordering, for the last 4+ years.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Cory

Did you buy batteries from Enersys or MK?

MK has always been in stock and on our doorstep within 2 days of ordering, for the last 4+ years.

He's referring to the low quantities of batteries available through FIRST Choice I believe.

[Jon Stratis]

I don't know how much of this the suppliers can influence... But I would love to see FIRST release some of the Robot Rules information early. Is there any harm in giving us a list of approved motors in November? Or in giving us the required minimum/maximum specs for pneumatics? Or letting us know what the approved electronics are? By releasing some of that information earlier, it would hopefully help relax the strain we see every year on our suppliers. Older, veteran teams with abundant resources can order a bunch of motors before the season starts, while newer teams and those with fewer resources can order during the season. That way, suppliers like Banebots aren't trying to fulfill 3000 orders for a half dozen 550's each all at once. Less stress means the suppliers can plan their inventory a little better and turn around orders quicker. Letting teams get their hands on new motors earlier means we'll have abundant information available from other teams right here on CD when the season starts, giving us a better idea of which motors we want to use (for example, it would be nice to know ahead of time if a motor is prone to overheating, or if teams are finding case shorts, etc).

As for other ideas...

- I'd love to see more items move over to FIRST Choice and vouchers, but that obviously comes with the caveat of schedule. If a team wants to put together the kitbot chassis on day 1, it can't be on FIRST Choice.

- I'd love to have the choice between the c-base chassis and the Nano Tube chassis from AndyMark

- Having purchasable field elements from the start would be great. For example, being able to buy a kit to build a bridge (with performance comparable to competition bridges) would have been ideal this year, since the team-version ended up not having identical performance very easily.

[Joe Ross]

JVN

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

JVN

"You're gonna need a bigger boat tote" -Brody

[Dale]

For what it's worth I've always thought FIRST should get out of the KOP business. None of the other programs have such a thing. I'd much rather have a lower registration fee and just have a list of parts that are allowed or not. You could do an expanded FIRST Choice if you like.

We always end up of with tons of parts we don't use which isn't good for the environment, our budget (with higher reg fees) or our storage. Neither FLL or FTC have a KOP, why does FRC?

I'd also suggest they release the general list of parts you are allowed to use a month BEFORE kickoff at least so teams could order parts they know they'll use before the big day. That would save on shipping. FTC teams know they'll use Tetrix parts, FLL teams know they'll use Lego. FRC teams should be able to count on a base set of parts without guessing.

[Dominator1619]

I think allowing us to know a general list of parts allowed before is a great thought, but it really would only help veteran teams. Rookie teams with no real veteran support in thier area wouldn't have much of a clue of what they'd really need for compitition. Not everyone in the first world really comes on here, so rookie teams that are completely unaware of CD would be hurt by a reduced/eliminated KOP. I know our team every couple of years just recycles the stuff we don't use anymore (due to new rules/stuff going bad) and it helps raise some funds for our team plus the junk just doesn't end up in some landfill somewhere. And as far as limiting creativity with the expansion of the motor selection to allow for more of one type, creativity can be limited because of unreliablity in the motors we have. I know our team alone burnt up almost a dozen rs-550's this past season, so where's the encouragement to use those motors again if we had so many problems with them these past few years

[PAR_WIG1350]

Originally Posted by Dominator1619

I think allowing us to know a general list of parts allowed before is a great thought, but it really would only help veteran teams. Rookie teams with no real veteran support in thier area wouldn't have much of a clue of what they'd really need for compitition. Not everyone in the first world really comes on here, so rookie teams that are completely unaware of CD would be hurt by a reduced/eliminated KOP. I know our team every couple of years just recycles the stuff we don't use anymore (due to new rules/stuff going bad) and it helps raise some funds for our team plus the junk just doesn't end up in some landfill somewhere. And as far as limiting creativity with the expansion of the motor selection to allow for more of one type, creativity can be limited because of unreliablity in the motors we have. I know our team alone burnt up almost a dozen rs-550's this past season, so where's the encouragement to use those motors again if we had so many problems with them these past few years

In general, the 550's used in FRC are not unreliable because of any fault in the motor design. Typically only the combination of the motor, the transmission, and the demands on the system result in unreliability. With small, powerful motors, one must do everything necessary to prevent them from stalling or running slow. This means higher reductions, and using sensors to protect the motors if necessary. The 500 size motors we have been allowed to use in the past have been invaluable additions to the list of available motors due to their high power output and their compact size and I would hate to see them go without a suitable replacement to fill the gaping hole it would leave in the motor options available to teams.

[R.C.]

Originally Posted by Dominator1619

I know our team alone burnt up almost a dozen rs-550's this past season, so where's the encouragement to use those motors again if we had so many problems with them these past few years

Not be rude,

But the issue here isn't the RS 550 motors. Its more or less the way you are using them and your speed/torque ratio. We have used them in arms/conveyors and numerous applications with zero issues. One example, this year we used a single rs 550 motor for our arm with a gas strut assist. It lifted some serious weight but never got even close to being warm. It was actually the coldest motor on our entire bot. I wish I could say the same for the intake FP's

You may be stalling them and not gearing the motor properly for your application. JVN's Calc helps with the math.

Where have you had issues with these motors?

I would hate for these motors to go.

-RC

[apalrd]

My opinions on motors:

-Many motors prefer operating in various power regions. The CIM motors really don't care (in a 2 minute match), but a few other motors are picky:

--550 sized motors are very power-dense, the most power dense motors in the kit - They're not very much bigger than the 18w throttle control motors, but most of the ones do anything from 180w to 290w peak power. The CIM's are huge (have a lot of thermal mass) and do around ~340w at peak power. Because they produce so much heat for their small size, they have internal fans to cool them. If the fan does not spin while the motor is energized, the motor can't get rid of the heat fast enough, and then parts begin to melt. You then need to use them in an application where they will always spin, by gearing them correctly and never stalling them.

--Many automotive motors have thermal breakers inside. In some power windows, there is actually no sensor, and the button literally controls the motor directly, with the vehicle relying on the thermal breaker to protect the motor. These motors are impossible to burn up in FRC use, because of this. These motors will cutout when their limits are approached, and will just stop. This is usually good, as you know you are pushing the motor too hard, and need to re-gear.

--During the official season, we had 7 550-sized motors on our robot (there are up to 8 legal 550-sized motors). We never burned out a 550 motor during the season.

[Dominator1619]

The rs-550's we were having issues with we're run through a 64:1 reduction gearbox in our conveyor system. There was little compression on the balls moving through the system. To be honest, the only two pieces of electrical equipment we haven't had problems with are the CIM's and the victors (that includes burning up 3 cRio's and 4 PDB's). We have consistently had electrical problems ever since we left the old ifi system. Maybe we've just had a run of bad luck. Regardless of those issues, we more than likely will be finding a use for those little rs-550's in the up coming season as well

[AlexH]

the omfgbb gearboxes are crap. the planet gears are slightly too big and grind on the ring gear. the 64:1's have way too much resistance in them because of this. a guy i know was losing about 250w in his boxes with no load on them.

[PAR_WIG1350]

Originally Posted by AlexH

the omfgbb gearboxes are crap. the planet gears are slightly too big and grind on the ring gear. the 64:1's have way too much resistance in them because of this. a guy i know was losing about 250w in his boxes with no load on them.

Did he break them in first? If you grease them, run them unloaded for a while, degrease them (the metal shavings suspended in the grease are what you are really trying to get rid of, but it's not worth the hassle), regrease them, and reassemble them and they should run a lot more efficiently.