FRC Blogged - The 2015 Control System Request for Proposa

[Racer26]

Ought to be interesting to see if IFI is interested in once again being our control system supplier.

I'm sure many FRC mentors would rejoice at that concept. Sadly, I have a feeling that wont happen, either because IFI isn't interested anymore, or because FIRST might categorically reject a proposal from them. The old IFI systems were much faster to boot than even the 2009 cRIO-based system, which was the best one yet.

I also wonder if FIRST will be transparent with the FRC community about who is proposing?

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

Ought to be interesting to see if IFI is interested in once again being our control system supplier.

I'm sure many FRC mentors would rejoice at that concept. Sadly, I have a feeling that wont happen, either because IFI isn't interested anymore, or because FIRST might categorically reject a proposal from them. The old IFI systems were much faster to boot than even the 2009 cRIO-based system, which was the best one yet.

I also wonder if FIRST will be transparent with the FRC community about who is proposing?

I really can't see them being transparent in the process. I can't imagine the "you know what storm" that might erupt when a few thousand FIRST volunteer engineers each with their own pet companies and ideas debating this on CD.

Think Mac vs. Windows debate to the 10th power!

Things like this must be done with a limited committee of dedicated individuals.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by IndySam

I can't imagine the "you know what storm" that might erupt when a few thousand FIRST volunteer engineers each with their own pet companies and ideas debating this on CD.

Why imagine:
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ntrol+proposal
http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=105531

I'll be selling shovels ring side...

[apalrd]

Originally Posted by Nick Lawrence

Am I the only one who misses the original Linksys gaming bridges? I find it silly that we have a radio that takes longer than the crio to boot...

-Nick

We still use ours for practice robots.
Even after a robot landed on it in 2010 and dented the case.


On topic, I am interested to see the possible solutions. I hope all of the developers will focus on simplicity before optional features, as I would much rather have a simpler system that always works than something even more complicated than what we have now that also has a USB2 port. That said, I would love more features if they are reliable and don't cost too much in terms of weight/complexity, especially if they're optional - such as a smart PD board that can optionally be connected to a CAN/LIN bus or left unconnected.

I also wish FIRST would give up on processing vision on the RC itself. Dashboard is fine, coprocessor is fine, just not the RC itself. It's already busy.

[FrankJ]

They did not say they where changing just the contract was up, and doing they are doing due diligence. NI does not depend on making money from us to stay in business. I imagine a smaller company like IFI would. If not NI I would expect First would want another company with similar resources take up the challenge.

For reference look up a single seat license for the pro version of labview costs.

What bridge or other wireless solution gets used is a totally separate subject from the robot controller.

[Cory]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

NI does not depend on making money from us to stay in business. I imagine a smaller company like IFI would.

Common misconception. My understanding is during IFI's run of making our control system, Rack Solutions was their big money maker. With the introduction of VEX they are obviously doing more than fine without FIRST.

[Dkt01]

Originally Posted by BigJ

(Kinect doesn't even play video games well )

Maybe this research could be beneficial. I haven't tested it, but preliminary results are fascinating.

[DonRotolo]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Does this mean it would be integrated into the robot controller?

No, I didn't read it like that. "Support" does not equal "integrated".

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

In other words, we could end up with a control system that doesn't support current languages.

Yes, in theory, but what other languages are there? A company promoting their product using some obscure language (FORTRAN 77?) isn't going to see a lot of business. Reality is, you will know at least one of the languages. (And if not, you learn. Like real life)

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

How would an integrated solution work? For example, can you imagine the design challenge if the radio was integrated into the cRio?

No, I am having a difficult time imagining that. Seems trivial to me, but that may be just me...

Originally Posted by IndySam

Things like this must be done with a limited committee of dedicated individuals.

Absolutely, and I truly hope they don't get all transparent on us in this case.

[rsisk]

Originally Posted by DonRotolo

... A company promoting their product using some obscure language (FORTRAN 77?) isn't going to see a lot of business.

And what is wrong with FORTRAN? My first programming language was FORTRAN IV

[ebarker]

Before there was National Instruments, with their fancy cRIO system for test and automation ..... There was the HP1000, a real time test and automation system that ran ... yes, you guessed it... FORTRAN

HP1000

Yes indeed, FORTRAN on the 1000 predated NI and the cRIO.

[Ekcrbe]

Don't be appalled by the lack of "required" functions and the many that are "suggested". That's to draw more options, so that one issue doesn't derail an otherwise capable system. Just remember, if it's not better than the cRIO, we won't be changing systems. The system will not get worse.

[FrankJ]

So we go back to Fortran. Anybody have a card reader with a USB port?

We could go with a GE, Fanuc, AB, Siemens, ABB, ..... a host of others. They all have their own graphical language as well.

[BigJ]

Originally Posted by Dkt01

Maybe this research could be beneficial. I haven't tested it, but preliminary results are fascinating.

Sorry, let me rephrase. Most game developers at this point are not using Kinect very well. I am not sure if this is a limit of their time and budget or of the Kinect technology. However I have a hard time believing that a lot of FRC teams can do better with Kinect than the developers of a AAA video game (Steel Battalion).

http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/...y-armor-review (Might have strong language, I didn't re-read it too closely)

Although Steel Battalion has a bunch of problems aside from the Kinect control, the Kinect controls it is using are relatively simple and apparently fail to work well enough for that stuff.

Not to say that some developers aren't using Kinect well (see Double Fine's Happy Action Theater/Sequel): http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-...equel/17-6467/ (This one most likely does have strong language but I did not re-watch it)

Notice that the Happy Action Sequel mostly just uses detection to paint things on the scene and record the players.

Again, it's one of those things that is possible, but unless the bonus is VERY high, most teams will use that time to improve their in-robot autonomous, or spend more time in driver practice. If the bonus is very high, then you have the high disparity between teams who could get it to work and have enough experience, and those that couldn't.

Rereading your post, I think you probably weren't trying to refute me or anything, but after compiling the post I figure this is good information for everyone to see anyway.

[techhelpbb]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

So we go back to Fortran. Anybody have a card reader with a USB port?

We could go with a GE, Fanuc, AB, Siemens, ABB, ..... a host of others. They all have their own graphical language as well.

I have an RS232 card reader and an FTDI adapter.

Therefore I have a card reader and punch with a USB port.

I also have 8" serial interface floppy diskette drives and a reel-reel tape unit.

You'd be surprised why I still have this stuff.

It was amusing to me that I have PDP-8 parts to fix things in museums.

Hey this RFQ askes for nonvolatile storage that'll hold data for 3 days.

Digs up my core memory...you asked for it!

[skimoose]

Originally Posted by ebarker

Before there was National Instruments, with their fancy cRIO system for test and automation ..... There was the HP1000, a real time test and automation system that ran ... yes, you guessed it... FORTRAN

HP1000

Yes indeed, FORTRAN on the 1000 predated NI and the cRIO.

Oh, come on if we're going to go to tried and true systems, I vote for my first imbedded experience. An 8080 with numeric keypad programmed in hex and managing a 2K memory stack. Or my first closed loop feedback system on an analog computer programmed with jumpers.