Should FRC Account for School Size?

[Aroki]

Originally Posted by SuperNerd256

A low resource team with a well-thought-out robot and a smart strategy will beat a high resource team any day.

A high resource team with a well-thought-out robot and a smart strategy would have a distinct advantage over the low resource team, while having the less problems to overcome. I don't think a tier system would work due to the complexity of making one, but I do recognize the gap between high and low resource teams' ability to compete competitively

[Ravage457]

Unless u did it like how they do it in high school football, like here in Texas, the size of the school(# of students in the school) would determine what class district the school would be in, for example South San High School(Team 457) would be in district 28-5A, Brandeis High School (Team 3481) would be in 25-5A. Now from their if both teams made it to the State Championship, depending on the enrollment in this two school would determine what division the school would be place, for example Team 457 would be District 5A Divison 2, and Team 3481 would be District 5A Division 1, now the other teams that are not part of any school district, Could be place in 6M1 or 6M2(6 Man Division 1/6 Man Division 2, since those school can only field 6 players on thier team) due to the size of thier Team, it can be done, but the state would have to be in a district format, and FIRST would have to know how many students are in each school and in non school affliated team, other than that u couldnt place team in divisions by the size of the school if you were doing this nation wide, maybe if you were doing it in a state that has district format

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Ravage457

Unless u did it like how they do it in high school football, like here in Texas, the size of the school(# of students in the school) would determine what class district the school would be in, for example South San High School(Team 457) would be in district 28-5A, Brandeis High School (Team 3481) would be in 25-5A. [...] it can be done, but the state would have to be in a district format, and FIRST would have to know how many students are in each school and in non school affliated team, other than that u couldnt place team in divisions by the size of the school if you were doing this nation wide, maybe if you were doing it in a state that has district format

We just got done saying that size of school has nothing to do with the size of the team, and the size of the team has little or nothing to do with how competitive they are. A team of 15 can compete with the big boys, or a team of 40 or more can be the last seed. A team of 15 could also be at the bottom of the standings, while the team of 40 could be first at every event. I think you get the picture.

[JosephC]

In short, no. When you rank a team in a lower division than a different team; your basically telling the lower division team they don't have just a good a chance as the higher ranking team. This doesn't fit within the mission of FIRST at all.

Team's can be just as successful as any other team regardless of their resources. It's all about how you design your robot, not how you make it. 4334, regardless of their school size and resources, built an incredible robot out of almost nothing.

[slao]

I think the OP was actually referring to the resource gap, rather than just school size.

With regards to the resource gap, I think that's a major aspect of FRC. It's meant to be like real world, where there are no divisions. Life isn't always fair. But like others have said, you have the ability to be innovative and compete with others who have a bigger budget and better resources.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Dealing with many teams each year, it doesn't seem to matter (in the big scheme of things) how big the school is, how big the district is or how big the team is. I have seen big schools struggle to turn out a 10 person team and I have seen small rural schools involve the entire school. There is at least one team that had so few students that they joined forces with the next closest district, across the state line and still had less than twenty team members as I remember.

[lynca]

Originally Posted by holygrail

As FRC grows and potentially becomes more and more like other major school activities like sports, it makes me wonder whether FRC should account for school size.

Size should not matter, small private schools are producing fantastic results in FRC.

What should matter is % of school under free or reduced lunch. The free-lunch % statisitic is a metric used to gauge poverty levels at schools.
After years of watching teams succeed and fail in inner city schools, I believe the free lunch statistic is a major contributor between a sustaining team and unsustainable team.

Now if FRC really wants to meet their growth numbers for the future.
FRC should consider reducing registration fees to teams with a >40% free-lunch .

[Andrew Schreiber]

As a huge Star Wars fan I've been waiting to use Yoda for something on CD...



All joking side, this is supposed to emulate real world engineering. We don't have enough time, money, resources, or information about the problem but we need to solve it. There will always be people who have more time/money/resources/knowledge but we have to do our best with what we have. Hand holding and handicapping won't help with that. Let us low resource teams compete with the best so we can know what it takes to beat them in the future.

[rachelholladay]

Originally Posted by lynca

Size should not matter, small private schools are producing fantastic results in FRC.

What should matter is % of school under free or reduced lunch. The free-lunch % statisitic is a metric used to gauge poverty levels at schools.
After years of watching teams succeed and fail in inner city schools, I believe the free lunch statistic is a major contributor between a sustaining team and unsustainable team.

Now if FRC really wants to meet their growth numbers for the future.
FRC should consider reducing registration fees to teams with a >40% free-lunch .

While this probably would be tricky to integrate (for example, would everyone else's registration go up a little bit to make up this difference?) I do like the sentiment. I agree that percent on free or reduced lunch is an effective way to measure poverty (and therefore lack of availability to resources).

[yarb65]

Team 1662 is from a school of 200. The team has won 3 regional and other awards. Team 330 way to wins to count, less than 200 students. Sometimes smaller can be better. Small no excuse. It only takes 6 dedicated students to build a winner. I know I have done it,

[IndySam]

Originally Posted by rachelholladay

While this probably would be tricky to integrate (for example, would everyone else's registration go up a little bit to make up this difference?) I do like the sentiment. I agree that percent on free or reduced lunch is an effective way to measure poverty (and therefore lack of availability to resources).

We have a very high percentage of free/reduced lunch. I don't think anyone would call us a low resource team.

See how difficult this is?

[Taylor]

Google "Indiana class basketball" - this is a raging debate that's been around since David plinked Goliath.
We all have an impossible task, and a ridiculously short amount of time to complete it. Part of the challenge is to recognize our resources and use them effectively.

[Jon Stratis]

Personally, I would hate to have a division structure in FIRST. When you look at a sport like football, there isn't much there that's "new". A team that is bigger, stronger, and faster will generally win. As a team standing on the sidelines, you don't really learn anything by watching two other team's play (ignoring what you might learn about the team itself) - watching them play doesn't make your team any better against a fourth team.

In FIRST, that's different. Going to a regional and seeing other teams does make your team better. I've learned a lot from seeing other teams at regionals, including techniques, designs, and processes that we brought back in order to better our team.

Further, sports is really all about winning. People don't join the football team because they're interested in the aerodynamics of a football while its in flight. They join because they want to get out on the field and win. FIRST, on the other hand, is not all about winning. This past year, you had students who were actually interested in the aerodynamics of a basketball in flight. As a community, FIRST defines success differently than sports, and it's that definition that really lets us pit rookie members against 20+ year veteran teams on the same field.

[ebarker]

Originally Posted by lynca

The free-lunch % statisitic is a metric used to gauge poverty levels at schools. After years of watching teams succeed and fail in inner city schools, I believe the free lunch statistic is a major contributor between a sustaining team and unsustainable team.

The free lunch statistic isn't a contributor,... It is a correlation.

A key to effectiveness is organization and planning, commitment, hard work, and other elements.

Team 842, Carl Hayden HS, is in a 91 % free/reduced lunch school.

Having a ton of material resources doesn't automatically convey advantage over the human spirit.

[lynca]

Originally Posted by ebarker

The free lunch statistic isn't a contributor,... It is a correlation.

A key to effectiveness is organization and planning, commitment, hard work, and other elements.

Team 842, Carl Hayden HS, is in a 91 % free/reduced lunch school.

Having a ton of material resources doesn't automatically convey advantage over the human spirit.

I agree with your wording, correlation is a more suitable term than contributor.

Using the free lunch statistic is by no means a full-proof way to separate teams. However using a mix of free lunch statistic, # of FRC awards won, and # of regionals attended. I can give you a rough prediction on whether a team will sustain over the next 5 years.