Ontario Teams in Jeopardy for 2012/2013?

[MechEng83]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Your post is comical at best and similar to what I would expect from someone who has never stepped into a real classroom.
If you did, I'd laugh even more.

Cmon, tempt me in another thread.

Real talk.

Wow. Your post is insulting at best, not just to Ether, but to every engineer and volunteer who participates in FIRST, and is certainly not GP. I would expect better behavior from a representative from a Chairman's Award team.

Politics exposes a lot of vitriol on both sides. Our job as members of the FIRST community is to work together to inspire science and technology, not hate and intolerance. What is great about FIRST is that it brings together people from the engineering and business community AND educators to teach Real World skills.

That being said, back to the OP.
It's unfortunate that the Ontario teams are put into this situation. Per my understanding of FIRST policies, teams are not required in any way to be associated with a school. I know of teams that are based in 4-H clubs, Scouts, etc. It's not an easy road to transition out of schools (essentially starting over), but if your team is dedicated, you'll find a way to persevere.
This is where I'll plug the non-robot parts of FIRST as useful: Every year as part of our business plan, we create disaster scenarios with plans and contingencies in case any event should occur. This includes loss of our robot space at our school. Plans like this are helpful for man-made problems as well as natural disasters. I encourage every team to create these plans.

[Nick Lawrence]

Originally Posted by 1075guy

I remember during work-to-rule years ago, our club stayed alive because the teacher wanted it to, going against his union.

EDIT: I suspect many long-standing FRC mentors will have this mentality too. Its about the kids. Not about their political battle with Queen's Park.

I expect this throughout veteran teams, for teachers who are truly "hooked" and passionate about the program. However, if this little conundrum doesn't go away easily, it could spell trouble for rookie teams in Ontario, at least ones with "rookie" teachers. (Rookies to FIRST, that is.)

-Nick

[Tom Line]

Originally Posted by Gregor

As easy as that sounds, it isn't so simple.

1. Who would supervise us?
2. Where can we get access to a shop?
3. Who would supervise us(again)?
4. How would we miss school for competition, as parents don't like unexcused absences.
5. What if someone gets hurt?
6. What about insurance?
7. What about storage?

Another huge problem would be figuring out who "owns" the current robot and material? The school does (in most cases), so we would be starting from scratch. We would need new everything, from a cRIO to plywood to aluminum to wheels.

And to make matters even worse, we have less than 4 months to kickoff to sort this out, and I'm sure there are many other problems that I have missed.

So yes, there are multiple reasons as to why teams can't run without school support.

I guess I still don't understand completely but that might be a difference in Canadian versus US schools.

Whether the teachers refuse to participate in extra-curricular activities or not, the team's money is the team's money and can't be held hostage. Unless the team's money is primarily coming from the school. Even in that case, here in the states many school administrations (upper management) don't fall under the union umbrella: as a result if you were here in the states you should still be able to get your funding.

Not having a full machine shop hurts, but I'd wager dollars to donuts in the 3 months prior to the start of the season you could find someone to donate machining time. Build in someone's pole barn or garage is pretty do-able to.

Frankly, school absences are no big deal. It all comes down to a balance: is a handful of days at school (of which you'll spend thousands in your life) more important than FIRST?

Again, maybe I'm not seeing the forest through the trees, or maybe circumstances differ in Canadian schools. I think you guys can pull yourselves together, show some good old FIRST initiative and get 'er done.

Edit: It sounds like the threatened extracurricular strike is only elementary teachers and only one day, that's good news.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by MechEng83

Wow. Your post is insulting at best, not just to Ether, but to every engineer and volunteer who participates in FIRST, and is certainly not GP. I would expect better behavior from a representative from a Chairman's Award team.

Sorry but I fail to see your generalized point, as its just your opinion.
I am a former engineer, parent, and volunteer at many FIRST/STEM related events who doesnt agree.

[Tom Bottiglieri]

Originally Posted by MechEng83

Wow. Your post is insulting at best, not just to Ether, but to every engineer and volunteer who participates in FIRST, and is certainly not GP. I would expect better behavior from a representative from a Chairman's Award team.

I'm an engineer and a volunteer and I think Glenn was spot on.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Ether

You don't strike me as the sort of person with whom it would be possible to have a reasoned discussion. So thanks, but no thanks.

If you are unwilling to further explain your sarcastic point, then dont quote my post. I called your bluff with the hope that you would explain further.
Apparently, I was wrong.

[Jon Stratis]

Why don't we all take a deep breath, let bygones be bygones, and drop the politics and vitriol it has raised? Nothing more needs to be said here for it - feel free to create another thread or take it to PMs, guys.

Back to your regularly scheduled topic...

I really hope we don't lose the Ontario teams. Even if it's like becoming a rookie team again, go work in a parent's garage if you need to! Please, don't do anything rash (like breaking into a classroom to steal your old robot back from the school!)... work within the system and with the school administrators! I'm sure you can work with them to help highlight the issues they're facing while also continuing to participate. How awesome would it be for both them and the team to get a news spot about the "robotics team that could" and the hardships you had to go through to keep working. Talk about the dedication of your teachers, and how badly you want their support back for the team!

[richardyun]

Just a few observations:

Having contingency plans as suggested is always a good idea. Loss of a major sponsor/key mentors/shop space, robot gets lost on the way to competition, robot is way too heavy when inspected (so you need to drill hundreds of holes in it, but I digress), etc. are all possibilities. Thinking about them ahead of time is a good exercise in helping team members prioritize, think creatively and develop some resilience so that is something bad happens, they either have thought their way through it or know they can think their way through it.

With respect to online/written debates, there is always a good chance for misunderstanding. When talking about contentious issues that people are very passionate about, it is difficult to have meaningful exploration and understanding in a forum such as this. We all fall into the trap of assuming that others have seen, heard, experienced the same things we have so "if you don't come to the same conclusions or have the same views that I have, you must be deficient". Then, if we deteriorate into mocking other's views or saying that "EVERYONE else disagrees with you and agrees with me", it makes people lock into their positions and no actual exchange of thinking happens.

My experience has been that asking questions, to find out why people think the way they do, is more effective than simply dismissing and insulting them. However I welcome hearing other's perspective on this.

Respectfully submitted,

Richard Yun,
Team 781 Leadership Mentor

[Foster]

So I've run a pretty successful VEX program with ~80-90 roboteers in it for the last three years without a school district supporting me. (And please note, they actually bill me for access to the school to run events)

As easy as that sounds, it isn't so simple.

1. Who would supervise us?
Parents / adult mentors. I've had roboteers act up, but once their parent / adult shows up, the nonsense stops.

2. Where can we get access to a shop?
Garage, empty warehouse space, store front, barn, etc. Find a sponsor!

3. Who would supervise us(again)?
Again, parent/adult mentors. I ask every parent who had a kid in the program "Of the three groups: the district, me and you; who has your son/daughter's best interest at heart." At no time in the last years has a parent answered with someone other than them. Our team is fully staffed with parents and engineers that care about the future of the roboteers and are highly interested in robotics.

4. How would we miss school for competition, as parents don't like unexcused absences.
"Please excuse my son Timmy from school on 1 Apr - 5 Apr 2012, he was at a STEM oriented event with me". They are not going to say no.

5. What if someone gets hurt?
It's called insurance and a waiver. It's why you have a safety captain to keep accidents from happening. It's why early in the season you have a first aid session.

6. What about insurance?
Call your local insurance agent. Fund raise to pay for it.

7. What about storage?
Find a sponsor.

None of this is rocket science. 100's of robotics teams across the US have figured it out. Question is how much do you want to make it happen?

We were locked out of the district 4 years ago during a strike. I said then I would never go back to a school. I teach roboteers that if you don't step up to control your own destiny (learn, work, plan your future, goals, study, etc.) that you are not going to have a happy life.

I support and respect teachers in everything they do. They have limited tools to accomplish some goals. One their tools are strikes and "work to the contract" They do what they have to do, I do what I have to do. Your Plan A was to be at the school. Time to execute Plan B.

[Tristan Lall]

I'm not sure why the government picked this fight in this way. Labour disputes were once commonplace in Ontario schools, and both sides' tactics are well known. The New Democratic and Progressive Conservative governments that preceded the current Liberals fought consistently with teachers, janitors and administrative staff over a series of contracts dating to the early 1990s. Once in power, the Liberals managed for many years to avoid a continuation of that labour war—but now it looks like old battles are destined to be fought again.

From a political strategy point of view, it looks like the government took a risk and it didn't pay off—much like the NDP in the 1990s. Only this time, it's hard to see the upside of their bet. Instead of convincing the public that fiscal priorities trump labour ones, the Liberals managed to make themselves look draconian.

The new labour law (introduced as Bill 115, and named in typical Orwellian fashion as the Putting Students First Act, 2012) is a real mess from several angles. The (minority government) Liberals teamed up with the Progressive Conservative opposition to pass legislation that pre-emptively suspends the ability of education workers to strike during a two-year period. Moreover, it mandates that their collective bargaining agreements not include raises during that "restraint period". This has (unsurprisingly, and justifiably) prompted debate over the constitutionality of the law, and the extent to which the ability to freely bargain collectively is recognized as a legal right. Legal challenges are imminent, and may well last for several years.

Also, any contract that neglects or contravenes the terms set forth in the act is instead assumed to contain them, or is voided to the extent necessary—in other words, it doesn't matter what a school board and union agree to, to the extent that it's not consistent with the act. That's a step beyond the usual back-to-work legislation, and raises questions about the freedom to contract recognized in law.

The act also contains subtle, crafty mechanisms to allow the government to fine-tune the implementation of the law. While not inherently a bad thing, the act is written in a way that gives the government (via the Lt.-Governor-in-Council) wider than usual power to control it. Indeed, the act's entry into force requires a legislative trick based on an odd provision of law that allows parts of statutes to be proclaimed into force at different times, even absent language to that effect in the bill.¹

While I can see how the unions might feel backed into a corner, they will ultimately have to take responsibility for their negotiating ploy to cancel some extracurricular activity, and its educational repercussions.

In any event, judging by the last time this happened—in 2001, the high school teachers union declared an end to extracurriculars during contract disputes—there will still be teachers who decide to persevere in other ways, and work around the union's demands. It's an open question whether that's a good thing in the long run—because it conceivably weakens the teachers' position—but at least in the short run, sporadic non-compliance in the name of worthy causes is probably a net plus to society.

¹ Perhaps this is for the better—practically speaking, rather than as a matter of democratic principle—as it lets the government shut the law down, even if the Progressive Conservatives refuse to vote in support of a bill to repeal it.

[George C]

Well put, Tristan. In 1997 I walked the pavement during the political protests against Mike Harris' policies and his Common Sense Revolution. I also lost several days' pay during the Rae Days of 1993. Neither experience was much fun and it gives me another reason to be happy that I retired and will not be as actively involved this time around. Let's hope this gets worked out before it drastically affects the FIRST program. Teachers would much rather be working with their students.

[akoscielski3]

The biggest thing for all teams is being able to spilt from their school if needed. Im sure we could do it but then what would we do? Maybe for the 2013 season ALL of ontario works together to so everyone can participate. Maybe FIRST Canada can step in to help out teams that are at risk of shutting down. Partnerships between teams will help them stat strong throw our strugle.

To be noted, it was said that the extra curricular activites were only canceled on wednesday, thi is true, but only for now. If they dont get it sorted out it will be for the rest of the year. And my teacher told me it wasnt their decision if they come and do extra curricular activities, they arent aloud to, period.

Im sure my team (772) would be able to work at the university or college or our main sponsor would give us space, but thn the issue of what property is ours an what is the school's comes into play.
Im really worried about the schools that have no where else to go, and for teams that were just rookies and are now rookies. If you need help please dont hesitate to PM me, im sure I could be of some assistence to some teams.

[Taylor]

Will we be seeing the Niagara Triplets again? Only this time the Ontario 78-lets?

The ultimate Eh-Team.

[JesseK]

As a mentor on a team in a highly political school district, I'm going to stay out of the general discussion. However, I wanted to stop in and publicly thank Tristan for his input. History is a major part of politics, even though we engineers typically don't pay attention to it during our required PolySci classes in school . We can all learn and adjust by looking at the historic reasoning behind current policy.

[Nick Lawrence]

Originally Posted by Taylor

Will we be seeing the Niagara Triplets again? Only this time the Ontario 78-lets?

The ultimate Eh-Team.

Could honestly be a viable option for some to many teams in Ontario if things get tough.

-Nick