Climbing Mechanism Ideas

[Richard McClellan]

Originally Posted by falconmaster

Ok it took awhile to find, but here is a climbing robot that could climb our pyramid legally

http://robotzeitgeist.com/tag/climbing-robot

Need idea, but that robot is touching more than 2 levels at a time, if you consider each rung of the ladder a level.

[MetalJacket]

That's one of the most complicated elements of this climb. It cannot be accomplished using a method that is intuitive to how a human would complete the task (aside from jumping up the levels but I don't think most people will feel comfortable with a 100-something lb robot jumping around 5'-8' in the air).

[frank.pendzich]

Noticeably absent in this year’s competition is the lack of overt scoring opportunities for cooper-tition. I thought this was strange considering FIRST’s ever-present focus on gracious professionalism and collaboration. After three days of mulling over any solution for robo-soloing the tower completely above the first rung, it dawned on me that the design of the tower requires a collaborative approach and that’s why the number of points that can be achieved or so high in comparison to tossing a Frisbee. Team efforts receive more points than those of individuals. Really – They always have.

Although Frisbees are certainly involved in play, they play a minor role in scoring and are probably (forgive me) a red herring. I believe this contest is really a test of team’s abilities to work together to scale that structure. That may be the reason why an individual robot can’t make contact with more than two rungs at a time and can only skip the first rung. It seems that we’re being setup to work together and it’s that feature that may in fact be designed into the game as the desired outcome by the game’s designers.

I think that this must be the rationale behind the game hint we received from the GDC in the form of a still-shot of Rick Ashley music video, “Never Gonna Give You Up.” Here’s the refrain.

Never gonna give you up
Never gonna let you down
Never gonna run around and desert you

The good news… This makes climbing the pyramid much easier if teams work together. Now – How do you capture a Frisbee off the floor.

[Erik Huang]

Originally Posted by frank.pendzich

I believe this contest is really a test of team’s abilities to work together to scale that structure. That may be the reason why an individual robot can’t make contact with more than two rungs at a time and can only skip the first rung. It seems that we’re being setup to work together and it’s that feature that may in fact be designed into the game as the desired outcome by the game’s designers.

I brought that idea up at kickoff, but people were especially skeptical that such a thing might be possible. The amount of coordination between teams would be insane, especially if there isn't another robotics team near you.

Coming from the Montreal region, almost half of the teams at the Montreal regional will be rookies (either brand new teams, or 1 to 2 years old). Granted, some of them are insanely good, and are quickly catching up to us, but still, it would be really hard to organize and get everyone to stick with it.

If we could devise a standardized way to get two robots to climb together, that would be cool... but would it be a waste of time?

[moogboy]

Originally Posted by Erik Huang

I brought that idea up at kickoff, but people were especially skeptical that such a thing might be possible. The amount of coordination between teams would be insane, especially if there isn't another robotics team near you.

If we could devise a standardized way to get two robots to climb together, that would be cool... but would it be a waste of time?

So this coordination...how much would a team REALLY need beforehand? A team could design a robot that is nothing more than a rectangle with an unbelievably strong climbing mechanism to push robots up as needed. That's a reasonable plan, in my view.

What about this for a vaguely universal coordination system:
Those are push pull scrapers. Basically one pulls up behind the other, lowers a big hoop onto a hook on the back of the other, and the amount of power available for pulling dirt up off the ground is instantly greater. So for FIRST teams, they could (very easily it seems) put a hook on the back and a window motor actuated hoop on the front and boom-universal system is ready to go. At least one team doing this has to be the first one on the pyramid, however, and they are going to need a climbing mechanism, so at least in theory a team could have only the hook on the back of their robot and others could hook on. Point is, this is well within the reach of most teams and the strains on a push pull scraper are many many times greater than what we would have with our FIRST robots, so making it smaller seems like it could work.

Now...does it make sense for teams to do this? I have no idea. I do think it's a reasonable thing for teams to put together and providing it does not violate any rules (none are coming to mind), it seems solid as long as a few teams close to one another do it.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

I'm also taking into account that in order to score 10, 20 or 30 points, the robot must exist entirely above the plane that defines each zone. I don't think (from my reading) that a robot could, for instance, grab the first bar, then the second, release the first, grab the third, release the second, and be hanging with the wheels below the plane of first (or second) bar, and still get 30 points, regardless of whether the robot is touching any but the third bar.

Climb legality and scoring value are entirely different things. Climb legality is based on contact; scoring is based on the lowest point of your robot in space. Do you feel the manual has left this ambiguous? I can't quote it from my phone, but what would you want to see clarified?

Skiing: Ok, if that's your definition of skiing, then true (illegal). That isn't so much the way I've heard it used, but definitely agree people considering it should be made aware. Perhaps reach out to them directly?

[Randomness]

Originally Posted by Erik Huang

I brought that idea up at kickoff, but people were especially skeptical that such a thing might be possible. The amount of coordination between teams would be insane, especially if there isn't another robotics team near you.

Coming from the Montreal region, almost half of the teams at the Montreal regional will be rookies (either brand new teams, or 1 to 2 years old). Granted, some of them are insanely good, and are quickly catching up to us, but still, it would be really hard to organize and get everyone to stick with it.

If we could devise a standardized way to get two robots to climb together, that would be cool... but would it be a waste of time?

There is a standardized way: deploy a copy of the pyramid around one half of your robot (so including a corner and at least a few feet of bar to one side) at 30 inches. Any robot built to hang can then hang on that bar, then you can pull them up for 60 points. That depends on the other robot being able to hang, however.

It also depends on how you interpret the climbing rules... but it is my belief that robots have successfully climbed if they get to level 3 height without touching any parts of the pyramid.

[ToddF]

Here is a way two robots working together could score 40 points legally, relatively easily.

Robot A: Flat top 8" off the ground with a ramp.
Robot B: Vertical arm with hook on top, extendible to 83 inches (max height is 84 inches)

1) Both robots drive into pyramid.
2) Robot B drives on top of robot A.
3) Robot A drives to center of pyramid.
4) Robot B extends arm 25 inches (25+8=33)
5) Robot A drives so robot B's arm taps zone 1 bar.
6) Robot A drives to center of pyramid.
7) Robot B extends arm 55 inches (55+8=63)
8) Robot A drives so robot B's arm taps zone 2 bar.
9) Robot A drives to center of pyramid.
10) Robot B extends arm 83 inches (83+8=91)
11) Robot A drives so robot A's arm hooks onto zone 3 bar.
12) Robot B retracts arm (or activates winch) and raises itself straight up into zone 3 for 30 points.

This sequence follows the rules for climbing the pyramid precisely, robot B contacting each level sequentially and never contacting more than two levels at once.

For even more scoring goodness, robot A then raises an arm, hooks the zone 1 bar and lifts off the floor for another 10 points.

[nuggetsyl]

Originally Posted by ToddF

Here is a way two robots working together could score 30 points legally, relatively easily.

Robot A: Flat top 8" off the ground with a ramp.
Robot B: Vertical arm with hook on top, extendible to 83 inches (max height is 84 inches)

1) Both robots drive into pyramid.
2) Robot B drives on top of robot A.
3) Robot A drives to center of pyramid.
4) Robot B extends arm 25 inches (25+8=33)
5) Robot A drives so robot B's arm taps zone 1 bar.
6) Robot A drives to center of pyramid.
7) Robot B extends arm 55 inches (55+8=63)
8) Robot A drives so robot B's arm taps zone 2 bar.
9) Robot A drives to center of pyramid.
10) Robot B extends arm 83 inches (83+8=91)
11) Robot A drives so robot A's arm hooks onto zone 3 bar.
12) Robot B retracts arm (or activates winch) and raises itself straight up into zone 3 for 30 points.

This sequence follows the rules for climbing the pyramid precisely, robot B contacting each level sequentially and never contacting more than two levels at once.

Teams had a hard time feeding balls to great shooters last year so I feel safe in saying this is not going to happen.

[mrnoble]

I'm not committed yet to the idea that scoring and climbing are entirely separate in terms of legality. I think there is some ambiguity that will need to be clarified on Wednesday. One reason is the weirdness of the idea that you must touch the footing (level 0) of the pyramid before progressing to the first rung. 3.1.5.2 could be interpreted as equating the "pyramid" not with the metal bars but with the zones controlled by the bars.

The implications of zones rather than bars are:
1) it will be a lot more difficult to grab the bars if level 1 ends at the plane tangent to the top of bar 1; climbing the corners may be the only feasible method.
2) If a robot is fortunate enough to have reached level 2, it could drop a line to a waiting alliance member below, and carry that robot up enough to no longer be in level 0.

If bars rather than zones,
1) climbing the rungs becomes more feasible (though still difficult).
2) a robot at level 3 could lower a cable to a robot partner on the ground, and lift it up, so long as the lower robot reaches out and touches the pyramid at specific points.

[engunneer]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

If bars rather than zones,
1) climbing the rungs becomes more feasible (though still difficult).
2) a robot at level 3 could lower a cable to a robot partner on the ground, and lift it up, so long as the lower robot reaches out and touches the pyramid at specific points.

I believe this is the interpretation that was intended. They would not have made the pyramid as it is without intending teams to climb the outer or inner 'faces' of the pyramid.

your second point about lifting a robot that touches each section in sequence (probably by being bounced off the horizontal bars along the way) seems like a legal corner case to me.

[gabrielau23]

Originally Posted by nuggetsyl

Teams had a hard time feeding balls to great shooters last year so I feel safe in saying this is not going to happen.

lolol. The only consistent "feeding" I saw was during autonomous when a team programmed their bot to regurgitate all their balls into an excellent shooter. Other than that....lol. This requires WAY too much coordination for two teams who haven't even met before.

[Brian Selle]

Originally Posted by gabrielau23

lolol. The only consistent "feeding" I saw was during autonomous when a team programmed their bot to regurgitate all their balls into an excellent shooter. Other than that....lol. This requires WAY too much coordination for two teams who haven't even met before.

The thing that's different this year is that many teams will have hoppers to accept Frisbees from the loading station. If you can make your robot look like a feeder slot chances are you will be able to find a mate.

[TRIron95]

Originally Posted by ToddF

Here is a way two robots working together could score 40 points legally, relatively easily.

Robot A: Flat top 8" off the ground with a ramp.
Robot B: Vertical arm with hook on top, extendible to 83 inches (max height is 84 inches)

1) Both robots drive into pyramid.
2) Robot B drives on top of robot A.
3) Robot A drives to center of pyramid.
4) Robot B extends arm 25 inches (25+8=33)
5) Robot A drives so robot B's arm taps zone 1 bar.
6) Robot A drives to center of pyramid.
7) Robot B extends arm 55 inches (55+8=63)
8) Robot A drives so robot B's arm taps zone 2 bar.
9) Robot A drives to center of pyramid.
10) Robot B extends arm 83 inches (83+8=91)
11) Robot A drives so robot A's arm hooks onto zone 3 bar.
12) Robot B retracts arm (or activates winch) and raises itself straight up into zone 3 for 30 points.

This sequence follows the rules for climbing the pyramid precisely, robot B contacting each level sequentially and never contacting more than two levels at once.

For even more scoring goodness, robot A then raises an arm, hooks the zone 1 bar and lifts off the floor for another 10 points.

Extending the arm over 54" seems to be in violation with the rule that says your robot must never extend outside a 54" diameter cylinder.

[lorem3k]

Originally Posted by TRIron95

Extending the arm over 54" seems to be in violation with the rule that says your robot must never extend outside a 54" diameter cylinder.

I believe he means to extend the arm 54" vertically, rather than horizontally.