How Much Defense Can You Play?

[Grim Tuesday]

I feel quite sorry for the head refs this year. At least the reasonably astute observer has been fired.

From Q138 on the definition of consequential and purposeful

A. Consequential means the action has an effect on the outcome of the MATCH. Purposeful means the action was deemed intentional.

I can think of quite a few valid cases where it can be argued that contact is consequential. It is very easy to argue (truthfully) that someone playing defense and accidentally contacts you while you contact the pyramid slows you down and lowers your scoring. If the match was close that's consequential. Only one of the conditions need be fulfilled for the penalty to take place so even if the contact was accidental, it can still be ruled consequential.

And isn't the point of contact defense to be consequential on the match? If not why would anyone play it.

I suspect either head refs will be very unwilling to give out these sorts of penalties, letting defense run wild or will hand them out like there's no tomorrow. It very well may be regional dependent.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by Grim Tuesday

I can think of very few cases of where it can not be argued that contact is consequential.

Exactly. Protected zones are protected zones...

[Grim Tuesday]

Originally Posted by pfreivald

Exactly. Protected zones are protected zones...

Precisely. I would be willing to bet a lot of teams will forget this and think consequential means only if they knock a robot off the tower. Note that there can be tech foul for contact in the loading zone (and as I said above, almost all contact can be argued consequential in a close match). I'll be telling our drivers, if playing defense, to steer as clear of there as possible to avoid any semblance of consequential contact.

[TheCrayButton]

My Team can shoot full court with our robot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzIke...er_profilepage

We are not to afraid of robots defending our long shots. There will be a very few amount of teams that actually play defense for those that can shoot long range.

Our first year in FIRST was 2011, and we had an all defense robot. All defenders have to do is just get in the way of other robots. They don't have to fully "block" them from the task at hand. With only 2mins, if defenders do this, they will win matches.

[JesseK]

This is the first year where an offensive robot can drive into the opponent alliance's protected zone without penalty as well (just don't actually touch the pyramid and you're fine). It totally opens up a whole new can of worms of rule subjectivity.

[45Auto]

There will be a very few amount of teams that actually play defense for those that can shoot long range.

Your robot appears to be shooting from very low. You don't think an opposing robot parked directly in front of you will interfere with your long range shot?

[TheCrayButton]

Originally Posted by 45Auto

Your robot appears to be shooting from very low. You don't think an opposing robot parked directly in front of you will interfere with your long range shot?

Our robot will be shooting from about 32inch high. Yes that is very low and it can easily be blocked. But in qualifications, i can almost guarantee teams won't block our robot that much. We can sit there all day and shoot just fine. All the other teams will be worried about shooting themselves.

Last year, we were a purely offensive robot that dumped balls in the basket. In qualifications, we didn't get blocked at all. It it really is strange how that works.

Now, in finals we will be blocked, but that is why we can shoot from anywhere on the field. We have an adjustable angle.

[EricLeifermann]

Originally Posted by TheCrayButton

Our robot will be shooting from about 32inch high. Yes that is very low and it can easily be blocked. But in qualifications, i can almost guarantee teams won't block our robot that much. We can sit there all day and shoot just fine. All the other teams will be worried about shooting themselves.

Last year, we were a purely offensive robot that dumped balls in the basket. In qualifications, we didn't get blocked at all. It it really is strange how that works.

Now, in finals we will be blocked, but that is why we can shoot from anywhere on the field. We have an adjustable angle.

I think you will see that after you start shooting from full court that the other alliance will notice and come block you.

I see full court shooter being more like snipers, take the open shots from the feeder station when available, if not collect the 4 discs drive to the pyramid/your preferred shooting location, shoot your 4 discs, and repeat.

[JohnSchneider]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

I think you will see that after you start shooting from full court that the other alliance will notice and come block you.

I see full court shooter being more like snipers, take the open shots from the feeder station when available, if not collect the 4 discs drive to the pyramid/your preferred shooting location, shoot your 4 discs, and repeat.

This is a very good interpretation of what I think we'll see at higher levels of play

[bduddy]

I think that many of the teams assuming there will be less defense in the qualification rounds are forgetting that this year, unlike almost every other, there is no deterrent in the ranking system to play defense. Yes, many teams will still play based on old assumptions and neglect defense during qualifications, but wiser teams may not and those robots assuming a lack of defense may be in a tough position.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by bduddy

I think that many of the teams assuming there will be less defense in the qualification rounds are forgetting that this year, unlike almost every other, there is no deterrent in the ranking system to play defense. Yes, many teams will still play based on old assumptions and neglect defense during qualifications, but wiser teams may not and those robots assuming a lack of defense may be in a tough position.

Further, getting into a defensive position (vs full courters) is much easier than many other years. Dunkers that weren't defended against in 2012 are overlooking the barrier across the field that few teams crossed in quals, and that they were scoring from their own zone: not protected, but also not sitting on the other side of the court in a whopping 20" loading area.

To teams unaccustomed to elim play, there's a world of difference between looking over at the other side of the court [from your robot] and seeing someone dunk, versus having someone zip frisbees down the field while sitting essentially next to you. (Location, location, location!) Better to compare it to 2010 than 2012, when defenders were naturally very close to scorers--one of the (many) reasons those quals were so slow. And this time full court low-shooters are much easier to block; they're not even moving. It's obvious for eager defenders and smart would-be alliance captains. Scorers who aren't that great might not be willing to give up offense altogether [often what stymied 2012], but unlike prior years, they don't have to--it's right next door!

All that said, defensive strategy is otherwise quite intricate this year. (It's not all as broad-side-of-a-barn as low loading zone shots are.)

[Jakester9999]

I believe that during qualifications there is going to be less defending! People will want to show what they can do, to try to get ranked number 1. . When it comes time for eliminations, the teams that actually showed during qualifications that they can defend, will have a better advantage of getting picked for an alliance then robots that tried shooting and were not as successful. Its going to be very interesting to see how many robots will defend this year. A good defense bot that can also make a 30 point climb rather fast may be more effective this year then a shooter bot.....

[TheCrayButton]

Originally Posted by Jakester9999

I believe that during qualifications there is going to be less defending! People will want to show what they can do, to try to get ranked number 1. . When it comes time for eliminations, the teams that actually showed during qualifications that they can defend, will have a better advantage of getting picked for an alliance then robots that tried shooting and were not as successful. Its going to be very interesting to see how many robots will defend this year. A good defense bot that can also make a 30 point climb rather fast may be more effective this year then a shooter bot.....

Exactly! I agree 100%. The defense robots will only show during finals. And any robot can play defense. In the finals, there will be good shooter robots that will play defense.

It will be interesting to see how many people actually "play" defense for their main strategy.

[pfreivald]

Originally Posted by TheCrayButton

And any robot can play defense.

But some are better at it than others!

[Mitchellsocks]

There is nothing in the rules against using pneumatic air blasts or fans for disc deflection, is there?