FIRST Choice is Profoundly Flawed

[PiltdownMan]

FIRST Choice has served and continues to serves my team very poorly. We have never gotten anything particularly useful from the FIRST Choice program (FC). For the last 4 weeks there certainly has been little available that we can use on the designs for the current season. That is because the things that we could use to actually compete with are provided in such small numbers that we can’t get them. So now we have 100 FC points that are essentially worthless.
The bottom line is we now need to stop worrying about what we need for a given year’s competition and choose the most valuable/scarcest items. We have to indulge in bad engineering, bad sportsmanship, bad logistics just to compete. Not gracious/not professional.
FIRST needs to design a system that makes more sense or redesign the FC system. They could set up a rotation system wherein the choice of the high value targets is limited over time or some other such concept.

(I personally would be less offended if the program was killed and we just had to buy those items. At least it would be an honest system. I would be happy to contribute ideas or time to solving it. It has already occupied too much of my time.)

[dcarr]

You're not alone, this has been discussed at length here (and here, and others).

It's a tricky problem to solve. I thank the folks at AndyMark for their dedication this season.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by PiltdownMan

FIRST Choice has served and continues to serves my team very poorly. We have never gotten anything particularly useful from the FIRST Choice program (FC). For the last 4 weeks there certainly has been little available that we can use on the designs for the current season. That is because the things that we could use to actually compete with are provided in such small numbers that we can’t get them. So now we have 100 FC points that are essentially worthless.

FIRSTChoice first opened back in December. It's a first-come-first-serve program. This is well-documented and well-advertised. Why did you wait until mid-January to start looking for parts? Are you shopping for Christmas trees now too?

The bottom line is we now need to stop worrying about what we need for a given year’s competition and choose the most valuable/scarcest items. We have to indulge in bad engineering, bad sportsmanship, bad logistics just to compete. Not gracious/not professional.

I'm trying, but I just don't see how you get from the first sentence to the second. Why would you order parts you won't need/won't use?

FIRST needs to design a system that makes more sense or redesign the FC system. They could set up a rotation system wherein the choice of the high value targets is limited over time or some other such concept.

They already do exactly this. Some of the parts were available in December; other parts were rotated in after kickoff.

(I personally would be less offended if the program was killed and we just had to buy those items. At least it would be an honest system. I would be happy to contribute ideas or time to solving it. It has already occupied too much of my time.)

What's stopping you, or any other team, from purchasing what you need? Most everything on FIRSTChoice is available to the public.

I agree with Glenn, there are flaws with the program if it is viewed as a KoP program. But that's not what it really is. FIRSTChoice is a way for companies to support teams by giving away free stuff, but these companies have neither the inventory nor the inclination to donate to each team. So when the parts run out, it's kind of by design.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Taylor

FIRSTChoice first opened back in December. It's a first-come-first-serve program. This is well-documented and well-advertised. Why did you wait until mid-January to start looking for parts?

The idea of seeing items in December was a great one, including being able to order prior to build season.
Unfortunately, without knowing the game and/or actually building your robot, do you determine what you actually need.

If you asked me in December, how much cylinders, plumbing, motor controllers, etc. that I needed, I couldnt tell you.

[Mr. 1033]

I'm a big fan of FIRST choice but there are a few things I think that could've be improved with the system:

1.) Credits carrying the same value: The credit system needs work. For example a piece of surgical tubing is 6 credits, but a Dewalt drill is 7 credits.

2.) Cap in quantity. There was no cap (with exception of the Frisbees) to my knowledge on the amount of each item you could request. So a team could walk away with 12 drills. Not saying teams bought more than needed and sold them on ebay etc but it gives the opportunity to people.

3.) More inventory of big items. I'm not sure how many drills, talons etc were originally available but we signed in minutes after it opened up and all the "good" stuff was gone.

4.) Rookies getting an early sale. We are mentoring 4714 and they would've benefited greatly from alot of parts on here that went so fast. If rookies were given an early slot to get the parts they need desperately to compete with veterans, then I think rookie performance would be increased.

Again, can't say enough how much I LOVE the FIRST Choice system. But these are a few of the ways I think they could be improved.

I'd recommend ordering the minute it opens up and order pieces you KNOW you are going to use. My team opted for Frisbees, motors, and pneumatic components. All stuff we knew we needed this year or stuff we will for sure need in the off season.

[kevin.li.rit]

Originally Posted by Mr. 1033

2.) Cap in quantity. There was no cap (with exception of the Frisbees) to my knowledge on the amount of each item you could request. So a team could walk away with 12 drills. Not saying teams bought more than needed and sold them on ebay etc but it gives the opportunity to people.

I think fixing the point system would prevent a need for caps on most items unless they had low quantities to begin with.

Originally Posted by Mr. 1033

4.) Rookies getting an early sale. We are mentoring 4714 and they would've benefited greatly from alot of parts on here that went so fast. If rookies were given an early slot to get the parts they need desperately to compete with veterans, then I think rookie performance would be increased.

I definitely agree with that, a lot of the parts veterans have collected over the years.

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Taylor

FIRSTChoice first opened back in December. It's a first-come-first-serve program. This is well-documented and well-advertised. Why did you wait until mid-January to start looking for parts? Are you shopping for Christmas trees now too?

I'm trying, but I just don't see how you get from the first sentence to the second. Why would you order parts you won't need/won't use?
They already do exactly this. Some of the parts were available in December; other parts were rotated in after kickoff.

What's stopping you, or any other team, from purchasing what you need? Most everything on FIRSTChoice is available to the public.

The credit-to-dollar ratio among parts available on FIRSTChoice is wildly different for each part. Some parts, such as Talons, represent a fantastic value compared to other parts and, simultaneously, have many, many more use cases than those other parts. That means that they disappear immediately and use of FIRSTChoice -- even if you sign in right away on the day it opens -- is an exercise in frustration and furious button mashing. It's the online version of Walmart on Black Friday and somewhat ridiculous.

We have money and buy all of the parts we want or need and are very fortunate to be able to do that. That means that I don't have to worry about practicing loading items into my cart, blocking out time in the middle of my work day so I can be online at 12:00:00 and fighting with bugs, server time outs, etc. Not everyone is as lucky.

[PiltdownMan]

Originally Posted by Taylor

FIRSTChoice first opened back in December. It's a first-come-first-serve program. This is well-documented and well-advertised. Why did you wait until mid-January to start looking for parts? Are you shopping for Christmas trees now too?

I'm trying, but I just don't see how you get from the first sentence to the second. Why would you order parts you won't need/won't use?
They already do exactly this. Some of the parts were available in December; other parts were rotated in after kickoff.

What's stopping you, or any other team, from purchasing what you need? Most everything on FIRSTChoice is available to the public.

I agree with Glenn, there are flaws with the program if it is viewed as a KoP program. But that's not what it really is. FIRSTChoice is a way for companies to support teams by giving away free stuff, but these companies have neither the inventory nor the inclination to donate to each team. So when the parts run out, it's kind of by design.

Wow...Taylor. You have not read what I wrote carefully and chosen to speak in a profoundly disrespectful manner.

[PiltdownMan]

I do think FC could work but needs work itself. I guess I should have stated that for us it is not economic hardship. We have been very lucky to substantial community support. We can buy what we want. It is the frustration with the dysfunction of the system that I am trying to address.

[FrankJ]

One issue is the rookie teams are not going to know in Dec that they are going to need a compressor, camera, so on, and know that they only have a day or so to order. Maybe that stuff should be put back in the rookie kits even at the expense of not having them on First Choice.

[sabruce01]

Originally Posted by PiltdownMan

Wow...Taylor. You have not read what I wrote carefully and chosen to speak in a profoundly disrespectful manner.

I was thinking the same thing! Some teams need to realize that money IS a BIG factor for other teams.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by PiltdownMan

Wow...Taylor. You have not read what I wrote carefully and chosen to speak in a profoundly disrespectful manner.

Originally Posted by sabruce01

I was thinking the same thing! Some teams need to realize that money IS a BIG factor for other teams.

The more important line in Taylor's response is one you seem to have conveniently ignored.

FIRSTChoice first opened back in December. It's a first-come-first-serve program. This is well-documented and well-advertised. Why did you wait until mid-January to start looking for parts? Are you shopping for Christmas trees now too?

Now, I happen to agree that FC is flawed. But it's a step in the right direction from the gross waste of the past 2 decades. It needs some work. But, the fact is I have several thousand dollars worth of stuff from the last 16 KOP that will probably never be used by us. I wish it could have gone to teams that needed it rather than sit and take up storage space but the fact is cataloging and distributing it is not cost effective at this point in time for us.

Am I defending the fact that FC doesn't seem to benefit the very teams that need the resources most? No. But I will say that waiting until 2 months after a store declares open season on their stock and then complaining there is nothing left that's edible is just plain silly.



And I'm going to address the fact that money is a big factor. If you are planning on building a robot on just your KoP money grant you are doing it wrong. FIRST is not simply something we do 6 weeks out of the year. Fundraising and outreach are a year round thing. You see teams with these big corporate sponsors and lots of machining ability and we are all jealous. But you know what? They weren't just handed that. I suggest pinging Adam Heard, I know he and 973 worked their rear ends off for everything they have and it might be a good lesson in hard work paying dividends.

[Ryan Dognaux]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

But I will say that waiting until 2 months after a store declares open season on their stock and then complaining there is nothing left that's edible is just plain silly.

A hundred times this. At least use the already existing threads if you want to voice your concerns. Don't teams have other things they should be doing right now other than complaining on here about FIRST Choice? Taylor wasn't being rude, he was asking a legitimate question.

[Doug G]

I don't think it is that flawed.. What is flawed is many folks understanding of what FIRST Choice really is... I so much enjoy a kickoff without the crate of stuff we won't use. I know this is an issue for more veteran teams, but I still have buckets of old drill motors (and cases), FP transmissions, etc... I am glad that I don't receive this anymore and that stuff like it end up on FC for another team to use.

I did appreciate the FC items we picked up this year... the new right angle drill, multimeter, extra C-Rio, compressor, etc... I thought it worked pretty well. Anyone want to exchange 14 plastic FP transmissions for ... well... anything?

[PiltdownMan]

I appreciate the feedback. We too receive lots of stuff we don't need. I am not sure what the fix for that is. Unfortunately, much of what is moved to FC is exactly the stuff I would want year in and year out. I am always going to need controllers and so on.