regualtion of nationals (team # limits)

[Mimi Brown]

Oh, Wow. I havent posted in a while. Well, I have a lot to say about this one.

1. I really like having nats at disney, just because its got a great atmosphere, and the weather is usually great (minus the rain). I really like the idea of having each division at each disney park. That would be really cool. I definatly think that we could easily figure out a way to keep nationals at Disney without having to keep teams from participating.

2. I dont really think that FIRST can easily limit who comes to nats (i've said this before). Many rookie teams can only go to nationals, because of funding or other reasons. If we then tell them, sorry, you cant go because you didnt go to a regional, then it seems like participating in FIRST isnt worth their time.
Also, Nationals is such a great experiance. I feel bad for teams that can only go to a regional, they dont know what they are missing. It would be wrong to not allow everyone to enjoy nationals.

3. Who said that they didnt see dancing???!!!????
Our team is slightly insane about dancing to the music at competitions. (this is what happens when you team has 16 girls and 11 boys...the girls end up dancing all the time. lol)....(think the big crowd before opening ceremonies on sat) Also, just wait until next year, when it will the danceing wil be better than ever!!!

ok...i needed to get that all out.
~Mimi who had lots of built up posting energy in her

[Matt Leese]

Originally posted by Mimi Brown
Oh, Wow. I havent posted in a while. Well, I have a lot to say about this one.

1. I really like having nats at disney, just because its got a great atmosphere, and the weather is usually great (minus the rain). I really like the idea of having each division at each disney park. That would be really cool. I definatly think that we could easily figure out a way to keep nationals at Disney without having to keep teams from participating.

2. I dont really think that FIRST can easily limit who comes to nats (i've said this before). Many rookie teams can only go to nationals, because of funding or other reasons. If we then tell them, sorry, you cant go because you didnt go to a regional, then it seems like participating in FIRST isnt worth their time.
Also, Nationals is such a great experiance. I feel bad for teams that can only go to a regional, they dont know what they are missing. It would be wrong to not allow everyone to enjoy nationals.

3. Who said that they didnt see dancing???!!!????
Our team is slightly insane about dancing to the music at competitions. (this is what happens when you team has 16 girls and 11 boys...the girls end up dancing all the time. lol)....(think the big crowd before opening ceremonies on sat) Also, just wait until next year, when it will the danceing wil be better than ever!!!

ok...i needed to get that all out.
~Mimi who had lots of built up posting energy in her

Let me respond point by point:

1) I think all of us enjoy Disney as a location for nationals. However, the fact that it is Disney makes it harder keep people focused on FIRST. I know I have trouble with that myself even though I love FIRST and I've already been to Disney 3 times. That is one of the main reasons that moving nationals to another location would be beneficial regardless of the additonal capacity of another location.

2) FIRST already has limited the number of teams going to nationals. If you mean limit nationals attendance to teams that also went to a regional, I personally feel that that would be a good idea. Why? Because the experience of a regional is much better and much more rewarding than the experience of nationals. At regionals there's more a feeling of competition; people are sitting in the stands watching most matches; people are excited; it's louder, there's more enthusiasm; there's a better chance of winning something. I've done just the regional thing for a year, and I would recommend that over just going to nationals. Regionals are just more fun. The main thing I get out of nationals (besides seeing people) is just the size and expansiveness of FIRST. Yes, it's a good feeling and it's neat to see, but I don't think it's necessary.

3) I didn't say anything about not seeing dancing, but I will say I see a lot less dancing and yelling at Nationals as opposed to regionals. I personally believe that there was more yelling at the finals in NJ than there was in the finals at Nationals (this could be because I was down by the field at NJ yelling while I was sitting in seats at Nationals but that was the impression I got). There's just more enthusiasm at regionals. I don't remember seeing random conga-lines sprouting up at Nationals but do at NJ (yeah, I know, no conga music but it still counts).

Personally I hope to see FIRST stay at Disney and to allow unlimited teams to show up. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll happen. We'll wait and see what FIRST decides.

Matt

[Mike Soukup]

I'll build on what Matt said.

1. Well, I'll skip this one because I've already commented on it.

2. I'll voice my opinion here again. With the current of Nationals, it is too large. If FIRST can do something to make it feel more like a regional and get people excited while keeping or increasing the number of teams, I'd love it. But if they can't bring the fun back, they have to reduce the number of teams. FIRST has a big problem here: Nationals isn't as fun or exciting as regionals.

Since this is the Rumor Mill, I'll pass one along. I heard that FIRST is considering limiting Nats to teams that attend a regional, unless it's a rookie team.

3. I was the one who said there wasn't a lot of dancing or excitement at Nats, and I'm standing by that statement. Sure there were isolated instances of dancing, but it doesn't come close to what you find at a regional. And I can't help but compare Nats '01 to Nats '96, where during most periods between matches people would stand up (sometimes on the park benches) and dance, and during some songs almost everyone was up dancing. I just didn't see that type of excitement this year.

And as Matt said, there wasn't as much yelling either. Actually, there weren't many people even watching the matches. With ~80 teams per division, I'd expect the division stands to be overflowing (the only time this happened was the division finals). At times there were plenty of open seats. And during the finals on Einstein, the stands were empty. Contrast that with the finals in Chicago where everyone was watching and cheering. The place erupted when our alliance got the 710.

FIRST needs find a way to make Nationals as exciting as regionals and as exciting as it used to be.

Mike

[Justin]

Hello,

I will just chime in here and say that time and time and time and time and time and time again I have heard people voice the same concerns as Mike. Nationals isn't fun anymore because it's too big. I went to nationals during the 3 year period of 97, 98 and 99 and I must say I have some very good fond memories. I took 2000 off from Nationals and went to them again in 2001. What a rude awakening that was....the size of things mushroomed out of control. And the whole time I was there I couldn't shake the feeling that I had much better memories from the previous trips. One thing that I think has severely limited the dancing/party atmosphere....indoor stages. I hate them...they are small, u are packed into the tents like sardeens. I say leave the stages outside. Drink plenty of water...u'll learn your lesson sooner or later like I did in 1998 when I almost dehydrated. But I'd gladly take a little sun to return that party atomsphere to nationals. I don't think finals @ Nats have ever been well attended in my exprience...to many people much more interested in the magic that Disney has to offer by that point than a robot compeition. If anything divisions hurt nationals the most. It was impossible to find teams...and if you had teams u wanted to see in multiple divisions...just forget it...here was no hope.

In regards to the rumor...it seems like a good money maker for FIRST. Because if you have to go to a regional to go to nationals well that $4000 + $5000 right there so basically all teams going to Nats will be shelling out a min of $9000...but give the rookies a one time break.

Just my thoughts,

-Justin

[Justin]

Okay,

First, something about sports stadiums. Most of these places have teams that inhabit them. I am hoping to see a Regional at the new Manchester Civic Center here in Manchester New Hampshire. However I was informed of a few obstacles to holding a FIRST comp @ a sports arena. Basically you have teams who inhabit them...so you have to work around a fairly regular schedule for a professional sports team. My response was "well they can break down a basketball court and have ice in the hockey wrink in just a few hours." Anyone who has assembled a FIRST field knows that this is not concieveable. Scheduling wise it isn't like FIRST is in and out in a day or even nite...they are there, setup, entrenched for 4 probably more days. There is no ticket revenue so u have to rent the place out...which cost enourmous amounts of money especially if the workforce is unionized because they have a minium amount of wages, etc. that need to be covered.

Secondly on a completely unrelated note...

The nationals was created so all FIRST team's who could afford to attend, could come together and enjoy the game, together.

My question is this to everyone who said Nationals shouldn't be limited....aren't the really already???

-Justin (again)

[Pamela]

I have always personally liked the closeness of regionals better. I love the fact that people stay and watch almost all the matches at the regionals, it makes competition so much more exciting. the thing I enjoy about nationals though, is the distance people travel to all gather in one spot to share their ideas, robots, and spirit with one another. Their is no other competition quite like it. FIRST touches many peoples lives and brings people from all walks of life together. It is great to see teams with diversity, and jocks, and "geeks", and people from every group come togther for one cause. The excitement and enourmous size of the nationals is what people remeber, if the event became smaller and more select it would discourage teams if they could never quite make it to that level. Could you imagine FIRST without the nationals open to everyone? What would you feel is your team wasn't good enough at regionals to make it to the national competition. If FIRST wants to encourage team work it will be a very hard thing to make the nationals open to only high seeds in the regionals. Also, if it was onyl open to regional winners, what would happen when a team who could only afford to make it to one regional wins? How will they make it to nationals? Or if your team can't afford to attend a regional and could only make nationals? Would that team automatically get into the national? Just some thoughts on selective nationals....

[EddieMcD]

Do it like the Olympics. At the end of the season, have all the teams that attended Nationals vote on a stadium for the next nationals. Debates can be held. Each team gets one vote (probably an online vote around May). Winning stadium gets the first opportunity to hold the nationals. If they can't, it goes back to a vote. This way, if they choose to hold the event, they get about 10 months to prepare for it.

Oh, and 2 words: Pontiac Silverdome. You have the Central Michagan cluster there, and it can hold 93,000 people.

[Carolyn Duncan]

Hey Justin,
About your comment of renting out an arena and the expense. What about when FIRST rents out Epcot for the evening for all of us? That can't be too cheap can it? And nats already being limited. Yes they are and I don't agree with that. There has got to be some way to eliminate limitations.
C~ya,
Carolyn who doesn't like conformity or limitations, and pushes both to the point that no one thought was possible just to prove them wrong.

[Ken Leung]

Originally posted by Carolyn Duncan
Hey Justin,
About your comment of renting out an arena and the expense. What about when FIRST rents out Epcot for the evening for all of us? That can't be too cheap can it? And nats already being limited. Yes they are and I don't agree with that. There has got to be some way to eliminate limitations.
C~ya,
Carolyn who doesn't like conformity or limitations, and pushes both to the point that no one thought was possible just to prove them wrong.

As much as I hate limiting National... I have to say that FIRST HAVE to do that eventually. I would even say that FIRST should do it next year because the size is so big already...

The two reasons why I say this:

The Price of getting a bigger place anywhere have grown more and more that it just get ridiculously expensive to have a bigger event.

There are so many teams in one place that FIRST will never have the personal or the resource to have a completely organized competition.


There is just no good way of facing this problem... Yes, even though National was made so that ALL teams could go, but next year we are probably facing 600 teams all over the national. So, one way of letting every team to go to National is to raise the entry fee to $10,000, or some how FIRST just have to start making money through some other way... (You see what I am getting at?)

Again, I have to stress that this is a problem with NO perfection solution. We might not like it, but that's the way it is.

SO, no matter what people want, limitation is a MUST even thought it's not a good solution. Remember, FIRST is just people like us... They are facing the same problem as we do, and they don¡¦t intentionally limit the size of National just to make people angry. It's a really tough job they are doing, and I just hope you all have the heart to respect FIRST's decision...

Couple of things I've heard that FIRST might be doing to limit teams at National:

Odd numbered teams will allowed to go to National in one year, and then Even numbered teams will be allowed to go to National the year after, and they rotate between the two group.

Also, teams who are doing really well at Regionals deserve to go to National because they should be given the chance to prove how good they are in the National level.

Finally, teams with really good record from pass years deserve to go to National... There are teams who did a really good job in the pass years who might have some trouble this coming year so they won't be able to have good result (for whatever reasons) at regional... Teams like team 22 Chatsworth HS who won the Chairman Award this year totally deserve to go to National next year for what they did, even though their robot didn't win a regional competition...

All these are to make sure the students on a team will get a chance to go to National IF they want to... while maintaining the quality of National...

[Matt Leese]

Originally posted by Carolyn Duncan
Hey Justin,
About your comment of renting out an arena and the expense. What about when FIRST rents out Epcot for the evening for all of us? That can't be too cheap can it? And nats already being limited. Yes they are and I don't agree with that. There has got to be some way to eliminate limitations.
C~ya,
Carolyn who doesn't like conformity or limitations, and pushes both to the point that no one thought was possible just to prove them wrong.

For the most part Disney foots a good part of the bill for Nationals. There is some money changing hands between FIRST and Disney but for the most part, Disney pays. FIRST would not have nationals if Disney hadn't stepped in back in '95 (right year?) to sponsor it. And realize that if we moved to an arena we'd probably lose the Disney sponsorship.

Matt

[Andrew Dahl]

what about the possibility of using all the Disney sites (calif and Fl) to hold coastal championships

i know its tons of extra $$ to travel but more teams would be able to participate


dahl
team497

[Matt Leese]

Originally posted by Andrew Dahl
what about the possibility of using all the Disney sites (calif and Fl) to hold coastal championships

i know its tons of extra $$ to travel but more teams would be able to participate


dahl
team497

Well, Disney would have to agree to it first. The other part is that there isn't too much space in Disneyworld (CA). Disney has a lot more property in FL than they do in CA (by an order of magnitude).

Matt

[Carolyn Duncan]

Well, there is so much that could be said. I guess I'd like to point out to Ken that if more teams sign up to go to nationals there will automatically be more money to pay for the larger arena. If Disney does pay for most of nationals, what then is the registration money used for? To the best of my knowledge the judges and other officiaals are volunteers and some of the tents and the Einstein field must be from previous use. I realize that the fees don't pay for everything but they have to pay for a certain amount or it wouldn't be worth Disney's time to get involved. I am not totally against limiting all of nationals, but I would like to have as many people there as possible. Maybe the way to solve everything is for Dean to buy another small island and use it for the national competition.
C~ya,
Carolyn

[Matt Leese]

Disney pays for part of nationals. FIRST pays for part of nationals. Most of the income FIRST brings in is spent on the FRC. FIRST's operating budget from fiscal year 2000 was included in the program this year. Off the top of my head, I believe that year registration fees totaled about a $1,000,000. While that seems like a lot, it's important to remember that FIRST employs about 20 people (including contractors). Their salaries take a good deal of the money that FIRST brings in. And of course there are costs associated with moving all the equipment around, moving the FIRST empoyees and volunteers to the various regionals and nationals among other expenses. Reading the budget was interesting for me at least so I invite you to take a look at it.

Matt

[Joe Ross]

The budget was on the one of the first few pages of the program from nationals.

...Not that I can find my program in my room

[EddieMcD]

Actually, I like the idea of Dean buying another country. I mean island. Island.

In all seriousness, buying another island probably would eliminate the size matter, but we'd have to figure out a way to get there. If it is close to the mainland, there could be ferries going back & forth, or even a bridge. But it can't be in the middle of nowhere unless the island is big enough for hotels to fit all the teams (and a large swimming pool, of course ), and an airport. It is a good idea though, and it would put another island in the fledgling Kamen Empire (inside joke).

[patrickrd]

Originally posted by Jessica Boucher
...I know this sounds kinda cutthroat, but how about just first-come, first-serve? (pardon any puns I may have made). First 300 teams to sign up come, whether its rookie team 856-something or a multiple regional winner?

My thoughts exactly

However, I'd much rather see them allow every team who wants to come to make it to nationals... even if this means using more disney property or moving to a different location. I thought I heard someone (maybe Dean) say at Nationals that Disney says that as long as FIRST keeps growing, disney will find a way to accomodate that number of teams.

Patrick

[Tom Fairchild]

Here's my two cents, so get ready for it because here it comes!

When you get down to it, not every team is going to be able to make it to nationals. For the life of me I can't remember just what the number was, but Dean at Nationals this previous year was talking about how quickly FIRST was going, there simply isn't anywhere that can take in that many people. Nevermind the venue, think hotels, transportation, etc. etc. etc. So, conlusion number 1 is that Nationals must eventually be limited.

Given that Nationals must be limited (I'm not saying that that's good, I'm just facing some facts), the question becomes how to limit it. This is the difficult part. Many ideas have been tossed around, and I have yet to see a bad one in the bunch. Saying that winners deserve to see how they do nationally makes sense, but so does first come, first serve. My idea is this - yes, make Nationals available to only those who qualify, but make it a much smaller (yes, I did say smaller) deal. Kind of along the same ideas as super regionals, enforce going to regionals instead of nationals. If nationals isn't nearly as big a deal as going to the regionals, then people won't be as upset when they can't go (for whatever reason that may be).

Is this the right answer? I honestly don't know. Is it just another idea to shout out and maybe get the juices flowing so someone else can come up with a better idea? Yes. Like Dean said, in the however many years he says its going to take to have FIRST offered in every high school, having everyone at Nationals just can't happen. It'd probably be for the best if we started planning for that now.

~Tom~

P.S. Please don't think I'm a pessimist! I'm really a nice guy, honest!

[Sean_330]

I prsonally would hate to see the nat's limited. But, i hope this may clear up a couple of questions. On a recent trip to Paris (yes the one in France) to promote FIRST at the Paris Air Show, i got the chance to talk to David Brown 1 on 1. And we talked about the nat's. He said that Disney is begging for mercy. He told me that we have outgrown Epcot. Remember, the 12,000 or more crazy FIRSTers are in attition ot their normal crowds and we are simply putting a strain on their limited resources. He said that they are exploring a number of options for the future including Disneyland in CA, and using the Wide World of Sports area. Additionally, he told me that if the current rate of growth occurs they may have to cap the nationals next year, Thus, for admittance, they have to explore new options. One of them may be on a point system based on past performance and awards, kinda like the method that Ken mentioned in an earlier post. Anyway, this was information was first hand out of David Brown, and i hope it makes some amount of sense.

Now my personal opinion: Disneyland is a really good idea. They have the Anaheim Convention Center directally across the street, which holds thousands of people. Also, there are dozens of new hotels that have gone up since the opening of the California Adventure. While it is not nearly as big as Disney World, it could accomodate a multitude of teams, and there is adequate lodging within walking distance. Remember, only 1/2 the teams would go to a split national championship Oh, and i live 30 minutes away, so my team would not have to spend a lot of money. Anyway, that's just my humble opinion.

Sean (who has posted on CD for the first time)

[mike o'leary]

while i can accept first-come first-serve as a means of limitting nats, i have to strongly oppose any other means of limitation, like having to qualify to go. many of my reasons for this have already been posted, so i wont repeat them. one that i dont think anyone has mentioned, however, is this:

to qualify for nats by doing well in regionals gives teams with a huge budget even more unfair advantage. how many teams went to 2 or more regionals? the teams that go to multiple regionals are almost exclusively teams that have been around for a long time, have enormous budgets, and strong support in both the student body and the faculty/administration.

these teams are given extra chances to go to nats.

furthurmore, to get these enormous budgets a team needs strong faculty/administration support, which is most readily gotten through support from the student body. one of the main reasons that people originally get involved with first is the idea that 'hey this means i get to go to disney' im not saying that this is a good reason to do first, or that its the reason people stick with first. it is, however, something that gets people to join a robotics team in the first place.
take away nats, and you take away the guarenteed trip to disney. people then say 'hey i could go to disney, if we win at a regionals...thats interesting' then forget it figuring that its not like theyll win the regionals.
if we lose student support, then first either cant grow, or its growth will stagnate.

plus, these same multi-reginal teams throw a wrench into the equation: what if they win more then one regional?