QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!!

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Posted by colleen.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Coach on team #246, Blue Light Special, from John D. O'Byrant High School/Boston Latin Academy and NSTAR/Boston University/UTC/Raytheon/MassPEP.

Posted on 10/16/2000 1:39 PM MST


In Reply to: QUESTION OF THE WEEK!!! posted by Andy Grady on 10/15/2000 7:35 AM MST:



How 'bout less the main stage.. and more all the stages?

As Andy and others know from our discussion at dinner the other night-- I say it was a nice try with the tents and indoor stages.. but I think so much was lost that Disney/FIRST should save the money and go back to the old ways of having everything outside...

Yes, I've sat in the blistering sun for hours.. I've sweat, I've burnt...
To me.. that's part of what makes it...

The inside was small.. dark.. teams were getting scooted around.. sit here, come in there, go out this way, don't hold that up, sit down..etc.. people were just hanging inside cause it was AC-ed and then teams couldn't get good spots to see or were being asked to sit when their teams were playing, etc... so much of the match excitement was lost.. and 3 fields going right there at once took attention away from each match..

If everything was back outside we could compromise to get the best of both worlds.. other than the Main Stage (Einstein).. the other stages could be lower so that people doing scouting/strategy can see easier without being waaaay up in the stands.. and the cover of the stages/fields could be extended as to shade the first few rows of ground seating so people could be there to be out of the sun...

this way-- more teams would stick outside and bring back the 'party atmosphere' that once existed.. outside if people are running around, dancing, cheering and having a blast, no one's complaining whereas it was often a problem inside...

As someone said at the team forum... there's just some 'feeling' about playing outside on the stage in front of everyone... some teams only had one shot if any to do that... if all the stages are back outside with the stands.. you get that feel all over again without having to worry about trying to get every team scheduled on Einstein...

I thought so much was lost having it all inside... if anything.. extend the pits more so more people can be in that airconditioning if that's peoples main concern..

it's Florida.. it's Disney.. it's suuuuppposed to be hot and sunny.. :-)

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 10/16/2000 3:35 PM MST


In Reply to: Bring it all back outside! posted by colleen on 10/16/2000 1:39 PM MST:



While I respect my fine colleague from New England, I respectfully disagree about the inside/outside issue.

In my opinion, FIRST should go the other way if anything, and put ALL the stages indoors, saving the main stage for the Finals only.

Yes, there could be improvements to the set up that they had indoors, but overall, I believe that the indoor arenas were a major step forward.

My two cents.

Joe J.

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Posted by Lora Knepper.

Other on team #419, Rambots, from UMass Boston / BC High and NASA, Mathsoft, Solidworks, Analog Devices.

Posted on 10/16/2000 7:05 PM MST


In Reply to: I rise in opposition... posted by Joe Johnson on 10/16/2000 3:35 PM MST:



: In my opinion, FIRST should go the other way if anything, and put ALL the stages indoors, saving the main stage for the Finals only.

*shudders*

There's a nightmare I hate to imagine! Those 3 indoor fields were a nightmare, and I didn't have to deal with the viewing side of things.

As a driver, having the 3 indoor fields (on which my previous team played on exclusively) was a pain to put lightly. There was so much noise from the other 2 fields, it was difficult to tell what sounds were for your match, and what were from others around you. Also, it made it near impossible to communicate with coaches, so forget talking to your alliance for on the fly strategy changes. Also the lighting was horrible at times, making some viewing difficult...

My team complained about the viewing, and I know that I'd have to agree with them on the times that I was out scouting or cheering for friends. I enjoyed sitting in the sun during the day, though maybe if they did add a bit to the pit tent for those that need to get out of the sun for a bit like Colleen said. In anycase I PLEA to FIRST to please bring Nationals outdoors again!!!

Just my 2 cents...

Lora

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Posted by Mike Kulibaba.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Other on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater-Raynham Regional and Depuy, a Johnson and Johnson Company.

Posted on 10/16/2000 7:52 PM MST


In Reply to: Nationals Outdoors Again Please!! posted by Lora Knepper on 10/16/2000 7:05 PM MST:



I have to agree with Joe that I think the 3 arenas they had inside were a big step forward and it was a good trial and error period. But what if they make that tent wider on all sides and put seating on all 4 sides of each arena. If you have seating on all 4 sides it would allow for more people to watch the event and not be so crowded. But they would need alot of seats on each side. I don't know how many but I think it could work. but I enjoyed being inside, it was crowded and there wasn't enough seats but I liked it better.

Kuli Team 88

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Posted by Bill Beatty.

Other on team #71, Team Hammond, from Team Hammond.

Posted on 10/18/2000 8:58 AM MST


In Reply to: I'm on Joe's side posted by Mike Kulibaba on 10/16/2000 7:52 PM MST:



How about moving the competition to a nearby indoor stadium. I would rather have a comfortable, good viewing arrangement at the expense of convenience for accessibility to the park. A pit tent and some auxiliary tents would be required, but all the viewing could be in the stadium or in air-conditioned tents with the semis and finals and awards in the stadium. Disney could apply their resources to the people moving problem instead of building a million dollar outdoor arena. The competition should take precedence over the park.

While we are on this subject, another suggestion is to have both semi-finals on the main stage. There is much dead time between matches and all of the final four should compete on the main stage. It would add very little, if any, time to the event.

Bill B

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Posted by Nate Smith.

Other on team #66, GM Powertrain/Willow Run HS, from Eastern Michigan University and GM Powertrain.

Posted on 10/18/2000 6:03 PM MST


In Reply to: Here Is A Far Out Idea posted by Bill Beatty on 10/18/2000 8:58 AM MST:



This post is much longer than I had originally planned when starting to write it, but please bear with me...

As people have probably noticed in the past, I'm all in favor of keeping the competition on site at Disney, for various reasons. And while the first two years I was at nationals, I did enjoy the time spent out in the park, last year I worked so closely on the scouting system all weekend that the only time I was able to venture into the park outside of the wrap party was for a short time on Friday night, then Sunday, when my team hit Typhoon Lagoon. Even so, I think that it is in the best interest of all involved(us, FIRST, Disney, and all those who don't yet know about FIRST) to keep the competition where it is...now for the comments on Bill's post to explain why I think this...

: How about moving the competition to a nearby indoor stadium. I would rather have a comfortable, good viewing arrangement at the expense of convenience for accessibility to the park. A pit tent and some auxiliary tents would be required, but all the viewing could be in the stadium or in air-conditioned tents with the semis and finals and awards in the stadium.

The question is, how many places would allow the type of setup that Disney sets up out in their parking lot? If you consider all that is involved(some of which is not necessarily needed, such as the carpeting), from the tents themselves, to the audio/visual equipment, to the electrical supply and air conditioning equipment, as well as the security necessary to protect all this equipment at night as well as the weeks before the event while it is being set up, what other location would allow us(or in this case, Disney & FIRST) to take up such a large portion of their parking lot to set up this equipment weeks in advance?

: Disney could apply their resources to the people moving problem instead of building a million dollar outdoor arena.

Even with the massive number of busses that Disney operates on a daily basis, I see transporting us from Disney to an off site arena being a problem. One of the nice things about being on Disney property for both the lodging and the competition is the fact that if something was left behind in a hotel room, just hop on the next bus from EPCOT back to your hotel, get what you need, then hop on a bus back. If we were to move off site for the competition, the transportation schedule is almost guaranteed to not be nearly as convenient as it is now.

: The competition should take precedence over the park.

While I think that for just about all of us, even through the complaints we have about the setup of the competition at Disney, deep down enjoy it, the question still remains: is the fact that we are at Disney solely for us? Putting aside all the facts about what Disney provides for us directly in our hotel package and the setup at the arena, what about the publicity FIRST is getting thanks to its location? I became aware of this my very first year with the competition, when I decided to be our team's mascot(if anybody that was around in '98 remembers the tall guy wandering around in the long black robe & hood, that was me.) I was in full costume and headed over to the Liberty Inn @ EPCOT for lunch one day, and took the boat across the 'lake.' On the way, I got to talking with a few people sitting on the boat who asked me about the various buttons that i was wearing(somehow, they overlooked the fact that I was dressed like it was Halloween =) Anyway, they seemed genuinely interested in the competition, and said they might stop by on their way out of EPCOT for the day. Now, whether they did or not I can't tell you, but the exposure that FIRST gets by having the competition where they do is most likely greater than any of us imagine. Yes, we are the largest event Disney hosts, but how do our numbers compare to the thousands of other guests they have during the 3 days of the competition? Out of those thousands, how many actually take the initiative to stop in and see what is going on in the massive tents outside EPCOT? Of those that don't stop, how many see it in the event calendars that Disney hands out and make an effort to find out more information later? Or, how many are watching the news when they get back home and see footage of the competition and think, 'hey, so that's what that was...maybe I should see if there are any schools around here involved with that?'

With all that said, yes, I realize the heat can be a problem at times(I definitely know I realized that when I was in costume back in '98.) However, I don't feel that a move is the way to solve the problem, for many more reasons than just the convenient access to the park at the end of the day...

Nate

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 10/18/2000 6:36 PM MST


In Reply to: Competition @ EPCOT - For us or for others? & misc comments posted by Nate Smith on 10/18/2000 6:03 PM MST:



Nate & Bill,

You both make a lot of good points. I am really torn about this one.

I know that Disney is a big draw for a lot of kids that otherwise wouldn't have anything to do with a robotic competition.

But at the same time, Disney is a net negative for the participants who are serious about competing or for even a fan intent on watching the event.

As to where to host the event if not at Disney, I have stated often on this forum that I believe that there are easily 10 and perhaps as many as 50 cities in the USA with the facilities to host the FIRST Nationals without hardly breaking a sweat. Transportation, hotels, compition venue, etc. Believe me, all these issues are difficult but nowhere near impossible to solve.

To my way of thinking, the only issue is whether FIRST WANTS to stay in a parking lot at Disney not that it HAS to stay there.

This is for Dean, Woodie, David Brown & the FIRST Board to decide.

Joe J.

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Posted by Jessica Boucher.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Student on team #237, Sie-H2O-Bots, from Watertown High School and Eastern Awning Systems & The Siemon Company.

Posted on 10/18/2000 7:41 PM MST


In Reply to: Disney is a mixed bag posted by Joe Johnson on 10/18/2000 6:36 PM MST:



: To my way of thinking, the only issue is whether FIRST WANTS to stay in a parking lot at Disney not that it HAS to stay there.

: This is for Dean, Woodie, David Brown & the FIRST Board to decide.

I agree. Its FIRST's decision. Though I do like using the term of 'taking a parking lot and putting up a paradise', if you know what song I'm talking about. ::grin::

-Jess Boucher

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Posted by Joe Johnson.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Engineer on team #47, Chief Delphi, from Pontiac Central High School and Delphi Automotive Systems.

Posted on 10/18/2000 8:00 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Disney is a mixed bag posted by Jessica Boucher on 10/18/2000 7:41 PM MST:



I doubt that Joni Mitchell would be pleased about the song she made famous being corrupted to become a song about a robot competition held at Walt Disney World.

While I am no tree hugger and I make no claim to understanding those who are, I suspect that neither technology nor Disney represent the ideals that Joni Mitchell was trying to address in that classic song about 'urban sprawl' (though that tag line hand not yet been invented -- perhaps by Al Gore?)

Ah well, I am amused even if Joni, Al & the Gang are not.

Joe J.

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Posted by Mike Kulibaba.   [PICTURE: SAME | NEW | HELP]


Other on team #88, TJ², from Bridgewater-Raynham Regional and Depuy, a Johnson and Johnson Company.

Posted on 10/18/2000 11:20 PM MST


In Reply to: Disney is a mixed bag posted by Joe Johnson on 10/18/2000 6:36 PM MST:



I agree with Joe and Jessica that this is FIRST's choice of what happens with the nationals, but Disney is a magical place where dreams come true. and Disney puts a whole bunch of money into it but also gets alot out of it.. they get a huge tax break by putting up a tent with A/C, stages, seats, etc. They get 25,000 people to buy tickets to go to their parks who wouldn't be there if the competition was held some where esle. I can't even begin to imagine how much money they make on all the water and soda and food that they sell to us and other people in the competition area. We all know the seating isn't the best and the weather can be bad to terrible at times, But maybe Disney and FIRST can fix that. I don't see FIRST changing the national competition to somewhere else anytime soon. I'd miss seeing those same people sing the National Anthem before the opening ceremonies, I'd miss seeing those doves fly off into the sky. I'd miss the show Disney puts on after the awards ceremony. I think if you get out of Disney you get out of the magical atmosphere that it brings. I don't think anyone else would have two guys who could hand paint pictures of Dean and Woody on stage. We'll see what happens, I think this is one of the most debatable questions. or maybe second behind which is better Coke or pepsi.

Kuli Team 88

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Posted by Jason Rudolph.

Other on team #459, , from University of Florida/Eastside High School and .

Posted on 10/19/2000 5:41 PM MST


In Reply to: Re: Disney is a mixed bag posted by Mike Kulibaba on 10/18/2000 11:20 PM MST:



: I think this is one of the most debatable questions. or maybe second behind which is better Coke or pepsi.

: Kuli Team 88

Don't you mean which is better coke or dew???????

Jason

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Posted by Samuel Lindhorst.

Engineer on team #240, Mach Vee, from Jefferson High School and Visteon.

Posted on 10/19/2000 6:32 PM MST


In Reply to: Disney is a mixed bag posted by Joe Johnson on 10/18/2000 6:36 PM MST:



: Nate & Bill,

: You both make a lot of good points. I am really torn about this one.

: I know that Disney is a big draw for a lot of kids that otherwise wouldn't have anything to do with a robotic competition.

I really believe this is the main reason FIRST stays there.

: But at the same time, Disney is a net negative for the participants who are serious about competing or for even a fan intent on watching the event.

Amen to that.

: As to where to host the event if not at Disney, I have stated often on this forum that I believe that there are easily 10 and perhaps as many as 50 cities in the USA with the facilities to host the FIRST Nationals without hardly breaking a sweat. Transportation, hotels, compition venue, etc. Believe me, all these issues are difficult but nowhere near impossible to solve.

Exactly true. Orlando's only plus is cheap airfare from everywhere. But then again, that's a plus for Chicago, too.

: To my way of thinking, the only issue is whether FIRST WANTS to stay in a parking lot at Disney not that it HAS to stay there.

Wants to, I'm sure.

: This is for Dean, Woodie, David Brown & the FIRST Board to decide.

: Joe J.

They can't have any input on this decision? Organizations like that eventually fail, and none of us wants that. There are alternatives, and they need to revisit what they are doing occasionally, as we all do. To have a vibrant, dynamic program, no change should be excluded, and nothing should be taken for granted.

As for Disney, I am a member of the loyal opposition. I'm repeating myself here, but the Orange County Convention Center is a mile or two from Disney's entrance, is a huge building that could hold the whole competion. As a plus, proximity to Disney (and OTHER fun places like KSC) is still there.

Sam

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Posted by Bill Beatty.

Other on team #71, Team Hammond, from Team Hammond.

Posted on 10/20/2000 8:50 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Disney is a mixed bag posted by Samuel Lindhorst on 10/19/2000 6:32 PM MST:



Orange County Convention Center? I figured there was some facility close by.

Move 20,000 people? Donald Duck soup for Disney. They are doing it now from the hotels to the arena.

Loss of passerby interest? You are kidding yourself. Most of the few curiosity seekers have to be lost because of the poor venue.

The park is an attraction to the students? Of course, and to us adults also. The massive Disney transportation system could keep it close.

I am in favor of keeping it at Disney, but the open air stadium has got to go. It seems to me something like the OCCC that Sam suggests is a doable and super solution! The Best of Both Worlds.

Bill B

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Posted by Jason Rudolph.

Other on team #459, , from University of Florida/Eastside High School and .

Posted on 10/22/2000 11:42 AM MST


In Reply to: Re: Disney is a mixed bag posted by Samuel Lindhorst on 10/19/2000 6:32 PM MST:



Well, you're right about the size, and location of the orange county convention center. However, I don't know if FIRST could get the convention center for a number of reasons. Disney gives FIRST that whole
venue to use, because they can, and they still make a bunch of money from the whole event from people staying in their hotels, going to the parks, and on concessions.

In contrast, the OCCC makes all their money by conventions renting out their space to use, I DOUBT that they would just give up the amount of space that FIRST needs for Nationals. Also, they wouldn't make any money off hotels, etc. Only from concessions, and that would not be enough. Another thing is that since it is such a large facility, it is almost always being used to some extent, which would add to the problem of getting the facility for at least a week.

Jason

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Posted by Andy Grady.

Other on team in limbo from in limbo sponsored by in limbo.

Posted on 10/16/2000 9:27 PM MST


In Reply to: Bring it all back outside! posted by colleen on 10/16/2000 1:39 PM MST:



Now don't get me wrong, im definately a sunshine person, but i have come up with this equation from my experiences...Florida + Heat + Sunshine + Strategy = Bad news...Im sorry, but my mind was made up the moment I got sun poisoning in 98 when i spent the whole day out in the sun doing strategy, I don't like that outdoor stage. Sure I love the party atmosphere, and all that, but im sorry id rather be inside a cool tent watching matches in a stadium view rather than out in that hot sun again feeling like total crap! Also, ive always said that the feeling of competition inside a gym or arena is much more electrifying than being outside in Florida. Something about all the people, in one small place, yelling and cheering still gives me chills. If they could accomplish bringing this feeling to Nats, it would be perfect.
peace,
Andy Grady